This post reflects the research and concern that I have about vaccines. It doesn’t represent my opinion of people who choose to vaccinate. Please know that, while we have made this decision, we respect the right of all parents to choose to vaccinate if they feel this is best for their child. I don’t have all the answers. Most of us don’t. We’re all in the same boat in that we need to make the best decision we can with the information we have. And, ultimately, I believe that God is in control – His will will prevail, no matter our decision.
Some years ago now, I began to look a little deeper into the question of immunisation vaccinations. I admit that, from the very beginning when we had our first child, I felt uneasy with the stories milling around about autism and other dreadful things that parents linked to vaccines. But, I soldiered on with vaccinations, trying to make the best decisions with the information that I had. I gleaned most of my information from health practitioners who traditionally support vaccinations.
But then I started to become increasingly suspicious of these practitioners’ expertise on the subject when one doctor lanced my daughter’s BCG boil, another doctor was appalled, saying that the vaccine had been rendered useless and still another vaccine-administering clinic nurse couldn’t remember that the first polio vaccine is given to the child while still in hospital. I began to wonder just how much these so-called experts really knew.
By the time I was pregnant with my fourth child, five years later, I had picked up snippets of vaccine information along the road of parenting. Some in favour. Some against. I was beginning to feel increasingly ambivalent about the practice of vaccinations.
In 2008, I came across an article about the Hannah Poling case. I was amazed to read that America’s federal authorities had conceded that there was a link between autism and vaccinations in a case that was settled in the Poling family’s favour. I was also amazed to read that her case was one of 5000 families with autistic children seeking damages through the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. While the article that I read indicated that leading scientists were not conceding a direct link, it still admitted that there was something wrong somewhere, with vaccines stuck in the middle of it all.
That article started me on an intensive search into vaccinations. The more research into the subject I did, the more convinced I became that vaccinations were not all that they claimed to be, and were, possibly, quite a lot worse than I ever suspected. As a result, and in discussion with my husband, I’ve chosen not to vaccinate our children anymore.
Here, in a nutshell, is why:
- Vaccine ingredients are potentially dangerous: many of the vaccines contain neurotoxic ingredients such as mercury and aluminium; carcinogenic (cancer causing) ingredients such as formaldehyde ; antibiotics known to have serious side effects; bovine-, monkey- and aborted human foetus-cells that have been linked to cancers (never mind the ethical issues) and preservatives that are poisonous. This is the number one reason why I’m concerned with vaccines. While childhood illnesses can be awful, and in very rare cases deadly, most of the time they pass by uneventfully. Death as a result of these vaccine-able diseases is rare and has been since before vaccines were introduced. But, overwhelmingly, there is more and more evidence pointing to links between ingredients we find in vaccines and cancers, neurological diseases and, more immediately, debilitating allergies (eczema and asthma) and illnesses (chronic ear infections – for which, ironically, there is now another vaccine). In fact, studies in the last 10-15 years show numerous people contracting a type of cancer that carried a virus found only in monkeys – SV40 virus. This SV40 virus, a known human carcinogen, has been traced back to the live attenuated polio vaccine. (see this article published in the Albany Law Journal of Science and Technology)
- Vaccine trials are not double-blind placebo-controlled: most medical experts will agree that a truly unbiased and medically ethical clinical trial needs to be a double-blind placebo-controlled trial. In other words, neither the doctors administering the drugs, nor the recipients of the drug have any idea whether they are administering/receiving the real drug or the placebo (saline/sugar pill substitute for the real thing) drug. In vaccine trials, the “placebo” drug is actually(often and, potentially, most often) another vaccine that has already been produced. In fact, not one vaccine trial is double-blind placebo-controlled. I’ve never been able to uncover a ethically plausible reason for this. I’ve since read of some vaccine trials that were truly double-blind placebo controlled trials. But, I’m still concerned that the majority of the vaccines that our kids in South Africa get are based on results of studies that use an earlier version of the vaccine as the so-called placebo.
- Pharmaceutical propaganda and emotive journalism is suspicious: increasingly, pharmaceutical companies are pushing for vaccinations – advertising is highly emotive – playing on parents’ desire to protect their kids and laying on the guilt heavily. Perhaps this would be understandable if there were world wide epidemics of truly vaccine-preventable diseases where children are dying in their masses. But there are not. And, increasingly, the vaccines being punted for children are for diseases they MAY only encounter as adults. Doctors I know personally, and others I’ve “met” online, are very disillusioned with the manner in which pharmaceutical companies do their work – they say that that pharma is an iceberg of corruption. While I don’t know, I don’t like their propaganda and I do get suspicious when pharmaceutical companies start punting vaccines aimed at preventing side effects of other vaccines! (Preventative medication should be without side effects)
- There is some serious doubt about the efficacy of vaccines. Vaccine trials prove only research efficacy (able to evoke an antibody response) and not clinical efficacy (able to prevent infection); yet the public is made to believe the latter rather than the former.
- I am distrustful of the “stats”: vaccine advocates will claim that vaccine introduction caused eradication of diseases in some cases, and a massive suppression of disease in others. However, every single childhood disease that is currently vaccinated against showed a rapid on-going decline for decades before vaccines were introduced. After vaccines were introduced, the decline of disease is minimal compared to the massive decline in the pre-vaccination years. Interestingly, unvaccinated diseases, such as scarlet fever and typhoid, show very similar decline rates to vaccinated diseases, although we don’t hear much about these diseases today – especially in the first world. See for yourself: these two graphs below show a comparison in decline between scarlet fever (unvaccinated disease) and measles (vaccinated disease) in Australia. More detailed information and other graphs can be found at the Child Health Safety website.
While childhood illnesses can be awful and in some rare cases, life threatening, I am not convinced that immunisaton vaccinations actually do what they say that they do and don’t do more harm than good. Even if they do prevent infection, there is still the question of the toxic ingredients. In the best of circumstances the decision boils down to risk taking. I can either risk the childhood illness and its side effects. Or I can risk the vaccine and its side effects. For the reasons above, we’ve chosen to go with the “devil we know” rather than the “devil we don’t”.


Recommended reading:
- Dispelling Myths about Vaccinations: this article calls to questions commonly believed claims of vaccines, including “vaccines are effective”, “vaccines are safe” and “childhood diseases are extremely dangerous”
- 9 Questions that Stump Every Pro-Vaccine Advocate and Their Claims: these questions uncover some pretty important issues, such as the way in which clinical trials are undertaken.
- History of Childhood Diseases and Their Decline: this article provides extensive graphical evidence of the decline of vaccine-available diseases, before vaccines were introduced and after.
- Vaccinated vs Unvaccinated: a study of 9000 boys in California and Oregon found that vaccinated boys were 155% more likely to suffer from neurological disorders like ADHD and autism than unvaccinated boys.
- South African Electronic Package Inserts: this website lists all the ingredients of every medicine administered in South Africa. See for yourself what is in our vaccines.
Hayes Happenings posts:
- Vaccination and immunisation posts: many of the links above are found in my posts on the subject of vaccinations. You can find all my vaccine-related posts and some really interesting news pieces on our website under the category “vaccination and immunisation”
- TITRE test: most of us do not know that our kids could have already contracted a childhood disease like measles, and never exhibited symptoms. This post tells you how you can know for sure.
- Vaccine ingredients: this post looks in detail at some of the dangerous vaccine ingredients. Many of these ingredients are handled by bio technicians wearing mandatory biohazard suits because they are so dangerous.
- Posts on specific vaccines:
- Time Magazine: emotive journalism at its best. This post is a counter argument to a “balanced” (but actually pro-vaccination) TIME magazine article.
- Dr Tenpenny on what the CDC and science reveals: Dr Tenpenny has spent thousands of hours investigating the Center for Disease Prevention and Control’s records of vaccine trials and studies. Every trial is documented and stored at the CDC. Dr Tenpenny’s investigation has uncovered extensive evidence, within the CDC documentation, that uncovers questionable methods; skewed statistics and alarming figures never released to the public. You can read all my posts on these findings here:
Additional recommended sites:
(Last updated: 23 November 2010)












Hi Hayes family
Really enjoying al the info on your blog. I am a homeschooling mother of 4 children (ages 14, 12, 10 and 5 months) in Beaufort West. I was still young when I had my older children and vaccinated all of them without asking any questions. With the new baby I started reading on the internet about all the debates against and for vaccination. I am totally confused at the moment. I would really appreciate it if you can in short tell me what made you decide not to vaccinate.
God bless
Liezl Vlok
Beaufort West
0722435251
Hi Liezl – thanks for the visit. I will email you soon with my answer – in the meantime, feel free to click on the “Why We” – don’t vaccinate link on the top links bar of our blog
Hi Taryn
Love stopping by from time to time to read your blog. Hope you and the clan are all well.
Thanks for posting this. I have struggled with this too especially since having Mikey. He is three months late for his MMR (for other circumstantial reasons). The only thing that i still feel a little uneasy with is some of the American studies. But maybe i’m reading the wrong ones. The other concern is that schools ask for vac cards when you enroll your kids ( i know this doesn’t affect you currently), but does this mean they won’t accept your child if they aren’t up to date with vaccines.
We have been on a new journey with all health related things at the moment, and trying to do things the more ‘natural’ way instead of using meds and other things when we are sick. Seen a huge improvement already with our health. God does give us wisdom and common sense!
Well, Thanks again and love to you all
Mich
Hi Michelle – thx for stopping by
Just so you know, no schools can legally turn you away if they’re not up to date with their vaccines. Vaccinations are a choice and therefore you are within your right to refuse them. It is entirely unconstitutional to refuse mandatory education to kids because of conscience decision on behalf of the parents.
That said, I know it’s not easy to have to make a stand on that in the school context, especially if it becomes an issue with the school of your choice. As you say – God gives us the wisdom. Medicine is not all bad. The concept of vaccines is awesome. I’m just not sure they really work.
Hi, another option is find a homeopath that do homeopathic vaccinations- that is just homeopathic remedies instead of the polluted vaccinations. They have a vaccination card they can give you that you can give to the schools- they cannot go against that
Excellent and very well said, Taryn!
Thank you!
Hi Taryn
Although i understand where you are coming from, you also have to give vaccines their dues – your post seems to indicate we have all been fooled into believing vaccines are useful when they are not.
Smallpox was a devastating disease which was wiped out by vaccination. There are also stll thousands of people left with paralysis and deformity due to obtaining polio in their childhood. There has not been a case of polio in most of the world for many years thanks to vaccination.
Congenital rubella syndrome (german measles in pregnancy affecting the fetus) is also thankfully rare now.
Your graph of measles deaths is also not a fair graph – rather have a graph of measles cases before and after vaccination: the number of cases has dropped exponentially since the vaccines. The deaths started to drop because of better medical care even before the vaccine but it is still a very nasty disease to get.
We have seen a DRAMATIC drop in haemophilus and pneumococal disease (including meningitis) in the children admitted to hospitals since these vaccinations have been introduced. Sometimes due to missing vaccinations, a child still gets one of these devastating illnesses which is a tragedy as it is preventable.
.
If most other people are vaccinated as means the prevalence of disease in the population will be low (so called herd immunity) and non-vaccinators will be relatively safe. However if the vaccination rate falls then the disease can gain a foothold – there are many more measles cases in the UK now due to people choosing not to take the MMR.
I understand the worry about injecting foreign material into the body but so far there is no evidence this causes harm – and there really are top quality people who look into these sorts of things. Most vaccinations have been around for so long that something would have come up by now. That MMR – autism scare: it has been shown many times that there is no link and the original research was very flawed, but it is difficult to erase the worry generated. In Japan they discontnued the MMR and autism is still increasing.
And yes, almost all medical practicioners vaccinate their children, not because they have been brainwashed by pharmaceutical companies, but because they have seen the consequences of preventable diseases.
Anyway, i know it’s almost impossible to change a person’s opinion but this was just another point of view.
Best,
Lloyd
Hi Lloyd
Thank you for your gracious counter argument.
I also appreciate the fact that you are a doctor and have had a lot of experience. It is most certainly valuable for other readers to see and hear both sides. I am sure they (as I do) appreciate the weight with which you speak.
You would obviously have a much better understanding of the medical side of things, being a doctor. Which makes me wonder if you’d be willing to take up some of the arguments presented here and counter them? I say this in all sincerity and without malice at all. I am all for uncovering the truth and would love for someone trustworthy to help me see truth, if what I believe is wrong.
I think that a good place to start is the link to the “9 questions” in this post. I’d like to get a medical opinion in answer to the questions outlined there. I’d love to hear what you think.
I’d also love for some one like you to watch Dr Tenpenny’s numerous DVD lectures on the subject. She (and many other doctors) have come to the conclusion that vaccines are not what they’re cracked up to be. In fact, most of the points you’ve made in your note she counters with evidence from CDC documentation of the very same clinical trials that put the vaccines on the market. But, perhaps you can find flaws in her argument that I, as a lay person, cannot. Would you consider looking more deeply into these arguments? (Again, I ask out of genuine interest and gratitude for your words so far).
As you’ve said, I understand doctors who see the ER (worst case) results of childhood diseases would want to do what they can to prevent it. I don’t think all doctors just blinding accept what the pharma world is saying. But, I really would like to see the hard, indisputable facts that vaccines are indeed working. From the “facts” that I’ve read, it’s under serious doubt. From the world around me – I see vaccinated kids who are getting the illnesses they’re vaccinated against all the time. (for example, Matt’s class just had chicken pox, and Debs says that so far it’s only the vaccinated kids who got it). And, surely, preventative medicine should not carry huge risks. I can understand chemotherapy when you’ve already got cancer and you’re fighting it. But placing known carcinogens and neurotoxins into the body willingly as a potentially preventative measure? I can’t get my head around that.
If vaccines are indeed safe and I am doing my kids a huge disfavour by withholding them, I’d like for the evidence to be indisputable. So far, what I’ve uncovered throws too much doubt into the arena to be willing to take the risk. But, perhaps I am under misconception. Perhaps you can direct me to the indisputable evidence?
If you’re willing to dive into this post’s links and follow them (especially those that lead to medical opinion) and highlight what you aren’t happy with, I’d be willing to post your responses here.
Lastly, please know that I don’t think that people who vaccinate their kids are terrible or wrong or stupid. I think that it is a decision we need to make carefully. And, ultimately, God is in control. And that is freeing indeed!
Love to your beautiful wife!
And thanks again for your gracious reply. It is MUCH appreciated
Hi Taryn
Thanks for your reply
I think i want to just address one point at present – vaccines : do they work.
Firstly, vaccine trials ARE double blind placebo controlled – at least the ones done more recently. That is generally how medications (and vaccines) are demonstrated to be better than placebo alone. Just go to scholar.google.com and type in Pneumococcal vaccine trial or prevnar trial and you will find many articles and trials in reputable journals like the Lancet showng how these were done. Here is a link to one:
http://www.med.upenn.edu/timm/documents/Lancet_2005p1139.pdf
I agree that some of the older vaccines were not tested in this way, but modern medicine is much more evidence based and stringently controlled.
Search for other vaccines like Rotavirus, the new HPV vaccine etc and you will see again and again they are randomised double-blinded control trials.
So when somebody starts their argument like the guy on 9 questions saying that there has never been a randomised control trial it has to bring into question just how much he knows about vaccines and the way they are done. It also throws doubt on all his other points.
Doctors are generally altruistic, intelligent people who also do question things quite extensively and do a lot of research on treatments and drugs totally separate to pharmaceutical companies influence. There is a big drive to publish data and trials and doctors are always looking to publish something big, or something that will change practice. There are plenty of examples of drugs being withdrawn after side-effects were found (such as Vioxx) or treatments being stopped or changed because of new evidence. For example, we used to gve steroids to premature babies who were stuck on oxygen as it helps decrease inflammation and allows the lungs to recover enough to get off a ventilator or decrease/stop the oxygen. It works very well. However a recent study showed there is a slight increased risk of cerebral palsy – the result: we don’t use steroids any more unless it is an exceptional case and only if the parents agree.
If there was proof that vaccines were harmful long term then there is no way they would be continued – not only because of ethical reasons, but the makers and prescribers of the vaccine would then be sued.
I am not saying there are no side-effects to vaccines – we know they cause pain, some fever and some of they are contra-indcated in certain conditions (like AIDS or progressive neurological disease). But to say they cause autism and many other terrible conditions with not one bit of proof is irresponsible.
Please also go look at graphs before and after vaccines were introduced which show how the diseases decrease after the vaccine – go to WHO or somebody reputable. Also, there are numerous studies in unvaccinated populations which show a marked decrease in deseases like measles before and after immunization : I encourage you to look through scholar.google.com which shows articles published in journals and not just unsubstantiated opinion.
I do not want to say anything against Dr Tenpenny, who i see if widely quoted, but i always worry when there are only a few very passionate proponents pushing a cause. It makes we wonder why if they were right why other experts and specialists do not agree. Although not in the same league there are still HIV/AIDS dissident scientists who are thankfully mostly ignored now.
As with everything, the descision to vaccinate is a risk vs benefit situation. The chances of your well nourished children geting a life-threatening preventable disease are low, especially if most of the other chldren are vaccinated. The risk of long-term side effects are also low (i concede nobody can say for sure it is zero risk). At the moment there is no proof for any long term vaccine risk and there is still a risk of a life-threatening preventable disease so i choose to vaccinate, but it is a personal choice.
Hope this helps…
Best,
Ll
Thanks everyone for your comments so far. Just to confirm – I write from a South African context, so our laws are a bit different, but there is no law in South Africa mandating vaccines. Thank you very much Lloyd for being willing to put time and effort into discussing this. And everyone else for your contributions too.
@Lloyd – I have been up to my armpits in other life stuff which is why I haven’t replied in detail yet – and I still don’t have a good time slot to reply (well, read the relevant articles and then reply). I hope to get to it soon. In the meantime, here is what one person said, who has read the study linked:
As I said, I still need to spend some kid-uninterrupted time reading it closely – takes my non-medical brain a little longer to assimilate all the terminology! In the meantime, Lloyd, I’d love to hear your feedback to the question the others are asking about where in the article it outlines what the actual contents of the placebo are. Thx!
Lloyd – here is another link that was sent to me – thought you’d be interested in seeing it: http://www.annals.org/content/153/8/532.abstract – it is a study done on what is actually in the placebos of randomised, controlled trials. Conclusions drawn from the study of trials done in the period of Jan 2008 – Dec 2009 was that contents of placebos were very seldom disclosed in these studies. I had a read through your link too and have also been unable to find an explanation of what the contents of the placebo actually are. Unfortunately – there are too many examples of other trials where the “other” drug was called a placebo but actually contained another vaccine or earlier version of the vaccine they were testing. I also am concerned about studies like these that are done on patients who are getting other vaccines at the time of the trial anyway – a lot of “adverse” results in patients that are documented are results that have been linked to ingredients inside these many vaccines.
Curious to know what you think??
Taryn, you are right. If you take Lloyd’s example of the HPV vaccine the ‘placebo’ was actually an injection of an (ostensibly) undisclosed amount of aluminium. The FDA gave Merck specific permission to use aluminium as a control because usually the tests are done against other vaccines and there was no other obvious vaccine candidate. Those who received the aluminium shots got sick at slightly less than the rate of those who got the vaccine and from that Merck concluded that the vaccine was safe!
The entire system is a complete fraud. They never use actual placebos – ever. The fact is they and the ‘regulators’ are guilty both of mass scientific fraud but of deliberately committing grievous bodily harm on teenage girls in order to make their useless poison look safe. Of course nobody from either the control or vaccine cohorts actually got cervical cancer so there was precisely zero evidence to suggest that the vaccine was effective – but that didn’t stop them from concluding that every girl should -nay must – get the vaccine. But this is just one example where Merck were foolish enough to (partially) disclose what was in their control. We can only imagine what these criminals aren’t prepared to disclose – but safe to say that unless you see the study for yourself, you shouldn’t believe a word of it.
All vaccines are useless. Their so-called successes are nothing more than doctors’ biases and bureaucratic edicts in systematically reclassifying old diseases into new or previously rare diseases. So polio became viral meningitis, Guillian Barre and cerebral palsy; small pox became severe/fatal chicken pox; diphtheria became severe tonsillitis; pertussis became croup; measles – rash; hepatitis – Hepatitis B, C, D, etc; bacterial meningitis (such as hib) – other forms of bacterial meningitis etc etc.
Vaccines don’t and can’t work – our immune systems just don’t work that way. You can’t “teach” our T-cells how to remember how to fight off viruses (or bacteria for that matter) and there is no such thing as a dead virus because viruses were never alive to begin with.
If you want your kids to sleep well and never get sick enough to see a doctor then do what I do and refuse to submit your children to be injected with poisons. On the other hand if you like the thought of sleepless nights, dealing with sickly kids who have chronic ear infections, gut problems, allergies, asthma, diabetes or even seizures, autism or SIDS then by all means get them injected. But don’t delude yourself into thinking that they will be protected from polio or diphtheria etc. They are far more likely to get those diseases it is just that the doctor won’t diagnose it in them. And especially don’t delude yourself into thinking you are doing your bit for “herd immunity”. This is just a term that is made up by the doctors to explain the fact that vaccinated children often get sick anyway. Doctors are desperate to protect their reputations, careers, incomes, self-esteem (ie they believe in this because they want to believe in it) and political power so they contrive this ridiculous notion of herd immunity so that whenever the vaccines are shown to be useless they can use that as an excuse to get more people to vaccinate more often. It is just like when the priests use to sacrifice virgins to make it rain. If it rained then that just proved it was a worthwhile sacrifice, if it didn’t then that just proved that more virgins needed to be sacrificed. It is not science it is completely made up. If 95 per cent of people are vaccinated and there is no disease outbreak then doctors congratulate themselves on their outstanding success of vaccinating enough people for “herd immunity”. On the other hand if, in the same population, there is an outbreak then doctors just declare that it just goes to show 95 per cent coverage is far too low and therefore more people need to be vaccinated more often. They will invariably find a bunch of kids whose parents don’t believe in vaccination and blame them for the outbreak – even if those kids had no symptoms. And of course the media will dutifully report this without asking the obvious question – how on earth could doctors have determined the exact path and origins of trillions of viral/bacteria particles to be sure of this? And of course everybody believes this nonsense – despite the fact that it is absolutely preposterous. Well, not everybody, there are a small contingent of us with the capacity for independent thought. But then, unlike most parents of vaccinated children we don’t spend half of our nights kept awake by screaming children, nor do we have to spend a significant amount of time stressing over our kids in the emergency room. So that probably helps our cognitive functions considerably.
Dear Punter
You have made some sweeping starements in your paragraph above.
I just want to address 2 issues:
1) Placebo. Here is the text from the article: The active quadrivalent vaccine was a mixture of four
recombinant HPV type-specific VLPs (Merck Research
Laboratories, West Point, PA, USA) consisting of the L1
major capsid proteins of HPV 6, 11, 16, and 18 synthesised
in Saccharomyces cerevisiae.10,14,16 The four VLP types
were purified and adsorbed onto amorphous aluminium
hydroxyphosphate sulfate adjuvant. The placebo
consisted of the same adjuvant and was visually
indistinguishable from vaccine
What this means is that the placebo was exactly the same as the vaccine except there was no HPV. It also looked exactly the same thus ensuring the doctors and patients were also blinded. This is a perfectly acceptable way to to be placebo controlled trials – give the patients exactly the same thing, except the active ingredient. This ensures that i) the 2 medications being tested look the same and ii) the other ingredients cannot be given credit for any benefit.
Now the HPV vaccine trials as you say have not compared cervical cancer rates because cancer takes many years to develop. They have however shown a marked decrease in HPV infection which is the causitive agent in cervical cancer. Less HPV infection most likely will lead to a decrease in carvical cancer (which is what the studies conclude). Long term follow-up should confrm this.
http://faculty.tamu-commerce.edu/fmiskevich/bsc-597mamb/cancer/villa-%20anti-hpv%20therapy.pdf
http://www.mcgill.ca/files/cancerepi/Lancet-Harper-364-1757-2004.pdf
Your other point about reclassifying diseases also does not make sense. Most diseases have confirmatory tests (eg: culturing polio virus in the stool). If a doctor saw a case he thought was polio he/she would send off the stool to confirm this. Doctors love to make rare diagnoses and have no loyalty to any drug company to cover anything up. You are obviously not in the medical field or you would understand better how things work. Please do not assme doctors have alterior motives or slaves to some corrupt puppet-masters. Most of us really do care about the wellbeing of our patients.
Yes Lloyd, putting poisons into a “placebo” is a perfectly sensible thing to do if your only goal is to delude yourself and others into thinking that the tested substance is safe. According to you I could “prove” that uranium was safe by injecting 100 people with uranium, another 100 plutonium and uranium, note that those in the second cohort died sooner than those in the first and voila! Absolute definitive proof that mercury was a cure-all!
But for those of us who don’t believe in fairies and goblins and elves we realise that such an experiment would be mind-numbingly fraudulent – and a case of deliberately causing grievous bodily harm on the test subjects. This is exactly what Merck did.
And by the way HPV has never been shown to be the causative agent in cervical cancer. This is just another baseless assertion that the church of poisoning and disfigurement makes because it suits their interests. According to you geniuses, because some guy found that nuns were supposedly less susceptible to cervical cancer than other women cervical cancer must have been caused by a sexually transmitted virus which could be caught when you were a teen and then 50 years later this virus for some mystical magical reason causes cervical cells to grow. Not a shred of evidence has ever been proffered to support this ridiculous lie but lets face it – it doesn’t exactly take people like you a lot of evidence to be convinced does it?
It is all about telling you what you want to hear. Here is a story – happens time after time. A kid gets vaccinated and then the next few days they are violently ill. They subsequently get better but two months later they get another vaccine and again, get violently ill. Again, they subsequently get mostly better, however, a few months later they get another round of vaccines and after that their lives fall apart. Now, for this, you guys say that that is pure coincidence and in no way shape or form could possibly be blamed on the vaccines. You believe such a ridiculous notion because you desperately want to believe it. On the other hand you believe that somehow it is perfectly reasonable to test for Gardasil in the manner that Merck did because it gave you the results you wanted to hear. If I tested any other substance the exact same way you would say it was fraudulent. But you don’t have the same vested interest in the safety of uranium as you do in the continuation of the fraud of vaccination(unless of course you were working for a nuclear weapons manufacturer in which case you might believe such a study), so any test no matter how ridiculously set up will be enough to convince you. Indeed I dare say that most of the time you never even look at the safety studies for any vaccine. You simply blindly take the word of the pharma representative that you have absolutely no loyalty to whatsoever (that’s sarcasm in case you are wondering). Your career, income, reputation, immense political power (doctors as a group not necessarily you in particular) and perhaps most importantly of all, your self-esteem are all dependent on the continuing belief in the safety and efficacy of vaccines. So you will ignore any piece of evidence that would suggest of their dangers and lack of effectiveness (no matter how obvious) and place great importance in any piece of evidence that suggests of their efficacy and safety (regardless of how contrived and obscure).
The only way that the Merck study could possibly make any sense whatsoever is if teenage girls often thought to themselves. “Should I have the Gardasil shot? No, better not. Too dangerous. I will go and have a shot with a mystery quantity of aluminium like I normally do instead.” If that is how most teenage girls think then Merck have a great answer. But you know, not once have I ever seen any Merck campaign or the mainstream press that fall over themselves to provide pharma company propaganda ever say: “Come and have the cervical cancer shot! According to our tests, it is only slightly more dangerous than injecting yourself with an undisclosed amount of neurotoxin!”
I would have thought that given you doctors all seem to think the MO for the Gardasil test is OK then not only is it reasonable to question all of your judgements it is downright mandatory if you want to remain in anything remotely resembling good health. After all how would I ever know if my doctor, when they asked me to take part in a drug study, wasn’t shooting me up with plutonium because they were trying to determine the safety of a drug that happened to have plutonium in it?
As for the diseases being reclassified theory not making any sense because they have confirmatory tests. That is funny, I didn’t realise there was a capacity to confirm viruses back in the 19th century. Could you please inform me of exactly what test that was? And could you please verify for me that for every single polio, small pox etc diagnosis now and going back say 2 hundred years the exact same confirmatory test has been used without exception on all people suspected of having these diseases or diseases with similar symptoms? Surely even you wouldn’t believe that? (What am I talking about of course you would. If a pharma company rep told you that red was green you would no longer stop at traffic lights).
Maybe some doctors do like to make rare diagnoses. The problem with that explanation though is that there have been several times in the past few decades where there has been an outbreak of a fatal pox condition and the local doctors have diagnosed it as small pox only to have the WHO or CDC overrule them (even when the tests for the virus comes back positive) because as far as those bodies are concerned it is impossible for anybody to have small pox.
Like I said, vaccines make no sense – there is no such thing as a dead virus and T-cells don’t have memory. The evidence for the vaccines working is based on the idea that the way we measure these diseases is exactly the same as it was 200 years ago when it should be blatantly obvious that all of these diseases exist and indeed most are remarkably common just called something else. There is no physical evidence and the only thing we have is our trust in people like you who, let’s face it, believe that if you inject two cohorts of people with poison and they both get sick at around the same rate this somehow proves that poison is harmless! Sorry, but I will stick to facts and reason.
Hi there! Wonderful post. I just wanted to add that smallpox was not eradicated due to vaccines. Only 10 % of the world population was ever vaccinated for smallpox. Scarlet fever has a similar disappearance but there was never a vaccine. Also Hib vaccine while reducing hib meningitis actually increased the risk of hib meningitis in those vaccinated for 2 weeks post shot due to severe immune suppression. There are other risk factors for meningitis that can be altered like nutrition, smoke exposure, breastfeeding etc. A preventative health measure should never have the potential to kill. It defeats the purpose and is not an acceptable risk for a healthy child.
Regen,
You are forgetting about vector control. If you vaccinate the areas that are endemic (as was done with smallpox), and the people that are most likely able to spread the disease, you can eradicate a disease even if only a small percentage of the population is vaccinated. There is no question that smallpox was eradicated because of vaccination.
Scarlet fever is not an infectious disease per se. Essentially, it is a compication of untreated strep throat (Group A Beta-Hemolytic Strep, GABHS). It has been reduced, in large part, due to our ability to rapidly identify and treat strep throat. However, GABHS has not gone away. In the U.S., anyway, you can hardly throw a stone without hitting someone who has recently had strep throat. This is one of those graphs that antivaccine sites love to trot out without explaining what scarlet fever actually is. it is very disingenious of them, in my opinion.
I’m glad you recognize that Hib vaccination has reduced Hib meningitis, though I would love to see your link to the evidence that hib meningitis risk is increased for two weeks after vaccination. Even if it is reliable, it does not sound like a reason not to vaccinate for Hib, since in the 80′s invasive Hib disease used to kill about a thousand children annually in the U.S., and caused 20,000 cases of invasive Hib disease (about 20% of which had permanent damage such as deafness). Now invasive Hib disease is almost unheard of in the U.S.(though it causes an estimated 400,000 annual deaths worldwide). Certainly it wasn’t our better nutrition or sanitation since the 80′s that has virtually elminated Hib deaths.
You’re absolutely right that nutrition, eliminating smoke exposure, and exclusive nursing are vitally important for a child’s health. However, I’m intrigued by your statement that “A preventative health measure should never have the potential to kill. It defeats the purpose and is not an acceptable risk for a healthy child.” Certainly when the chance that something will save your child’s life far outweighs the chance that it could harm your child, the risk is reasonable to take. Virtually everything we do for our children, from feeding them to teaching them to swim, is associated with a small risk of death. But we do them because their benefit to the child is so great.
I’ll open by admitting I’m anti-vax – across the board; but let me follow by also admitting that until relatively recently – a year or two ago – that was not at all the case.
Taryn – thank you for this wonderful blog.
Michelle – every state offers medical vaccine exemptions; 48 states also offer religious exemptions; and about half the states offer philosophical exemptions as well. All public schools – government entities – must accept the respectively offered exemptions. So, whenever you hear a PSA to the effect that “you must vaccinate to enroll in public school, it’s the law!”? – it’s not; it’s color of law. The truth is that the rest of the same legislation, literally, offers means to opt out. I would argue that there are myriad reasons to do so.
Dr. Lloyd – out of many, only two points, sir:
Over the last year I’ve seen a considerable amount of evidence – from relevant studies – that the “placebo” used in the currently typical vaccine study is another vaccine, or the same vaccine except last year’s version, or, sometimes, even an adjuvant, which, as a substance added to vaccines specifically to invigorate the immune system response is obviously the direct opposite, characteristically, of a true placebo; a substance that elicits no response. Any of the mentioned “placebos” can only serve to obfuscate reactions and discourage accuracy in the resultant findings. In the Lancet study to which you posted a link – perhaps I missed it, but although it mentioned placebo many times, I could nowhere find its description; it certainly should be included.
You mention polio in your examples of diseases virtually eradicated by vaccination, and this is an excellent example of misinformation that I assume you are unwittingly passing on. The vaccine was introduced in 1955. The following year the CDC changed the diagnostic parameters for polio – for instance, extending the period during which symptoms must display, from 10 days to 60 days. This was not an insignificant change, since many cases actually cleared before 60 days.
But more important was the change in diagnosis of polio-like symptoms; from polio to, for instance, aseptic meningitis, as reflected in the Los Angeles County Health Department statistics for the decade 1956 – 1966; from 275 cases of polio and 5 cases of aseptic meningitis, to 5 cases of polio and 275 cases of meningitis. There were other such medical re-directions, and it would be foolish to think they were all simply coincidental with the introduction of the vaccine. Moreover, I believe they point to a faith in the vaccination paradigm perhaps so unquestioning as to cloud the vision; to an unwillingness to diagnose a disease for which a vaccine exists, and for which the patient has been vaccinated, despite the fact that all the expected symptoms are displayed.
I would beg you to thoroughly research just this one point – what I consider, in sum, the illusion of the eradication of polio. It goes without saying that it will be useless in this type of endeavor to use the CDC and related entities as sources of information; you are already well familiar with their view. There are scores of research articles by doctors and investigative journalists, however, that are easily available via a little time and a good search engine.
I heartily recommend Taryn’s readers to visit the Facebook page, Dr. Tenpenny On Vaccines.
This is a most unusual side trip for me, and I hope you folks don’t consider this an intrusion. It’s spurred by my hundreds of hours of research into the topic.
Shawn Siegel
Hi all
I think people are getting seriously sidetracked. In that study one group got the vaccine and the other got something that looked exactly the same but was inactive (placebo). The vials are labelled with a code so that later on, when when the data is collected one can identify which was vaccine and which was placebo (or else how does one know?)
In this specific study it does seem like the prevnar/placebo was given with other vaccines at the same time – probably because this is how it is given in real life and it is important to see if this makes a difference to a vaccine’s efficacy. The fact that it was given in combination with other vaccines does not change the outcome of the study in that the vaccine protects against pneumococcal disease.
There are hundreds of studies showing vaccine vs placebo alone – here is one from the 1984 (see they were already doing placebo-controlled trials way back then) where they compared a different pneumococcal vaccine to saline :http://www.jstor.org/stable/30129348?seq=1
I think what frustrates me the most is that many people who are so against vaccines assume that the vast majortiy of doctors most of whom are for vaccines are either involved in a big conpiracy/being fooled by the pharmaceutical complanes/blindly following something that is dangerous and unnecessary without even questioning it. People also don’t realise the amount of planning, ethical approval, protocal approval and peer review which goes into a study – it is not a trivial thing. There have been many vaccine trials for HIV – but none of them have been approved because they do not work. If other vaccines did not work, they too would not be approved.
As i said in one of my earlier posts, it is virtually impossible to change someone’s mind on this topic – but i would be interested to see what these people did for their kids if suddenly there was a local outbreak of polio/smallpox in their community.
Go well,
Hi, Doc.
I would like to point out that it is not virtually impossible to change someone’s mind on this topic; to wit – mine! I would, in fact, be willing to bet that virtually everyone now anti-vaccination or (if you will) agnostic, was once pro-vaccination, and that’s a lot of minds – indeed, a daily growing number.
Your repeated mention of the threat of polio causes me to urge you once again to research the information I offered in my previous comment, vis-a-vis the manipulation of polio statistics, beginning the year after the introduction of the vaccine. It is a most egregious charge I’m making, indeed, with far-reaching implications.
An additional, similar, point, broader and somewhat easier to verify than the polio scenario; the oft-quoted, general statistic that vaccines are responsible for the eradication, or near-eradication, of the respective diseases, and/or their associated mortality rates, is simply not true. All you need do is access historical graphs of disease incidence – with the caveat that said graphs extend back to the early twentieth century. You’ll discover that the diseases peaked in the first two or three decades, and that by the time the respective vaccines were introduced, generally in the 60′s, they had already declined by well over 90% – in other words, they were already on their way out. Most medical historians credit this to both increasing natural immunity to the diseases, and increase in the quality of public water supplies, public sanitation and such. But the more important point is that the CDC and other public health entities, when discussing this topic, present graphs that start in the 50′s – that is, shortly before the vaccines were introduced. The result of the presentation is an illusory – false – picture of the vaccines being responsible for the subsequent eradication of the diseases. The realization that your most trusted overseers of public health are knowingly (obviously) providing false data to support the vaccination program is quite disturbing, and cannot but motivate a concerned parent or grandparent to research further. Unfortunately, that research confirms that our trust has been misplaced.
An excellent resource is:
http://genesgreenbook.com/resources/obamsawin/ImmunizationGraphs-RO2009.pdf
Shawn Siegel
Hey Lloyd – just a quick question – does this study prove protection against illness or just that it evokes an antibody response? If the latter – are there studies that prove that an antibody response is a guaranteed protection against illness?
Hi again
Taryn – that study shows antibody response : which is the same antibody that is tested to see if somebody has had the disease before. I’m not a vaccine expert and was merely finding some studies showing that double-blind controlled trials are done (and are actually the gold-standard) for vaccine trials.
Shawn – thank you for your opinions
I actually did look at that website you sent me and i wish to comment on those graphs:
Firstly – they show mortality (deaths) and not disease. Obviously as medical care improves, more people survive. Why do they not show the incidence of disease rather pre and post vaccination. The answer is simple – because it does not support the theory that vaccines do not decrease disease.
Secondly – the other disease they feature extensively is Tuberculosis. Now BCG vaccine is NOT an effective vaccine against TB. Infact it probably does very little to prevent pulmnary TB. However there is some evidence that it decreases the spread to the TB to other sites such as the brain (meningitis), bones, abdomen etc. The risk of spread is much higher in young children (less than 2) and this is the reason we give it around the time of birth. So it is not surprising that TB adult deaths are relatively unaffected by the BCG vaccine, but nobody claims that BCG protects against pulmonary TB
Thirdly – the diseases were dying out anyway due to hygiene: 2 points here – i) firstly how can this explain the decrease and elimination of the diseases in the third world where hygiene and overcrowding is in many countries worse than before but disease rates of vaccinatable conditions is low or zero? ii) Please check out the following website (it’s a good read too) http://www.drwile.com/lnkpages/render.asp?vac_effective
showing how infectons decreased following vaccination for many diseases but these vaccinations were spaced over many years. If hygiene alone was responsible then surely they should have all decreased at the same time and not co-incidentally after the vaccination campaign.
Your question about polio: Polio is diagnoses by culturing or demonstrating the virus in cerobrospinal fluid or stool. It is not only a clinical diagnosis. Everytime we see acute flaccid paralysis (nowadays mostly caused by guillaine-barre syndrome) we also send away stool to make sure it is not polio.
Go well,
Ll
hey Lloyd – thanks for the reply. I read that website link. The stats look very compelling. I must admit that I don’t like the authors’ opening premise that anyone who loves children cannot deny the positive work of vaccines. That sort of emotive speak is just manipulative. But, having said that, I’ve read enough from the anti-vac side that is equally emotive and often times comes across as petty and childish too (sadly, even the Dr Tenpenny site is sometimes marred by childish-sounding sarcasm). So, it cuts both ways. I can’t dig up the articles now, due to time, but I’ve read a few articles that explain how the statistics have been manipulated by changing the diagnostic terms. I think Shawn touches on that in a previous comment.
At the end of the day, my concern about vaccines isn’t so much whether they do produce antibodies and are effective, but whether they contain potentially more dangerous ingredients with more dangerous side effects than the vaccine itself. I’ve read hundreds of articles, studies etc that have convinced me that the ingredients of vaccines are more dangerous than the disease the vaccine is trying to prevent. Coupled with the hundreds of testimonies that I’ve read (and the stats in the hundreds of thousands from bodies like VAERS in the US) – it seems to me that the vaccine may well be more dangerous than good for those living in a first world context, especially. But, I may be wrong. I’ve just not come across any compelling evidence to the contrary. Interested in your thoughts on that.
T
Hi Taryn,
I found your link on Dr. Tenpenny’s facebook page, which I read from time to time. But as a Christian and a pediatrician, I feel a bit compelled to bring up a couple of points. Did you know that Dr. Tenpenny is a germ theory denialist? She does not believe that influenza virus causes influenza or that HIV causes AIDS, and you can verify this on her webiste. Of course, if you do not believe that germs cause infectious disease, then obviously you would have no reason to vaccinate.
But if you do believe that germs can cause infections, and infections can cause disease, then I’d caution you about using Dr. Tenpenny, and her FB followers (many of whom share her views regarding germs) as reputable advisors when making decisions regarding the health of your family!
Either way, there are definitely double-blind placebo-controlled studies regarding vaccines, including preclincal studies before the vaccine is placed on the schedule. Another example is “Safety and immunogenicity of trivalent inactivated influenza vaccine in infants: a randomized double-blind placebo-controlled study” by Englund et al: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19934787 in which the placebo is clearly documented in the full text as 0.9% saline. I hope you would consider adjusting or removing that bullet point in your list of reasons.
There are a several other points that you might be interested in knowing regarding the accuracy of the information you have received, but I won’t intrude further on your turf uninvited. Have a great weekend.
In Christ,
Nate
Thanks Nate – I read Dr Tenpenny’s articles carefully to ascertain your claim about germ theory denying. From what I understand, it seems to me that she’s not denying that a germ can cause an illness, but more that the environment the germ finds itself in is the key to whether the illness plays out. So, it would seem that she wouldn’t deny that HIV causes AIDS. It sounds more to me that she is saying that someone who may get HIV may not get AIDS because their immune system is strong and healthy and therefore able to fend off AIDS. And that is pretty much what most people understand, as far as I know. But, I am curious to test my understanding, and so am going to ask
But in the meantime, here is a quote from her article that makes me think the above:
“The terrain is everything; the germ is nothing,” creating the great debate. As contrary as it seems, germs are attracted to the diseased tissues; they are not the primary cause of it. A quote from Dr. Rudolph Virchow, the Father of Modern Pathology, supports this idea: “If I could live my life over again, I would devote it to proving that germs seek their natural habitat—diseased tissue—rather than being the cause of dead tissue. In other words, mosquitoes seek the stagnant water, but do not cause the pool to become stagnant.” The symptoms of the flu or pneumonia—fever, chills, cough, and excess mucous production—are actually secondary illnesses; the first “illness” was loss of health in the underlying tissues.
Bernard’s view is that disease is an “inside-out job,” meaning that when the body is disrupted by today’s toxicities—vaccines, chemicals, heavy metals, processed food, preservatives, etc. – disease occurs. These molecules create a cellular shift toward an acidic state. When cells become acidic, pathogens find a favorable environment to replicate.
What is little known is that throughout his career, Pasteur had doubts about his own assumptions. On his deathbed, Pasteur said “Bernard avait raison. Le germe n’est rien, c’est le terrain qui est tout.” (“Bernard was right. The germ is nothing; the soil is everything.”) However, by the time of Pasteur’s death, the germ theory of disease had become so profitable that modern medicine dismissed his final confessions as nothing more than the ramblings of a dying man.
Regarding adjusting the bullet point – point taken
I cannot say 100% if it isn’t 100% and so, I will adjust it transparently. As I wrote to you in the email, you’re most welcome to chat through further issues here. I appreciate candour. I do want to point out that for many of our vaccines here in South Africa, the studies are filed at the CDC and according to Dr Tenpenny’s research of these documents most of them were studies done where the so-called placebo was actually another vaccine entirely.
Leaving it there for now
Taryn,
I completely agree that healthful living and a strong immune system are important in preventing disease, and even more important at preventing bad outcomes from disease. But Tenpenny’s writings are clear that she believes that what we consider infectious disease is caused by the body, not by viruses or bacteria.
You already quoted her as saying “As contrary as it seems, germs are attracted to the diseased tissues; they are not the primary cause of it” and demonstrated how she claims that Pasteur recanted the germ theory on his deathbed (an urban legend that you will virtually only find repeated on germ theory denialst websites). But read the paragraph after the one you quoted:
“It may be that the role of both the bacteria and the virus is to induce an inflammatory response, a low-level and modified cytokine storm, to help the body to detoxify. It would be very interesting to test the secretions that are expelled during a bout of the flu for chemicals and heavy metals. For example, if a person reportedly died from “viral pneumonia,” perhaps the body was trying to expel a huge amount of chemical-containing mucous. If the person’s immune system was too weak to muster an adequate response or his lymphatics were too congested to drain the accumulated debris—and more chemicals are added during the acute episode, such as aspirin, antibiotics, anti-inflammatories, and steroids—the body may have become overwhelmed, leading to the person’s demise.”
She asserts that pneumonia is caused by “chemicals and heavy metals”, and that the germs are attracted to the diseased tissue, and help you out by getting rid of the toxins. This is the classic anti-germ theory, and has no basis in actual physiology. By this theory, if I have a child come in with a fever and cough, I should spray them with wild influenza to help them feel better faster.
Further, in her world, it is the antibiotics, not the pneumonia or the pathogen, that kill people with pneumonia. I do hope that if your child is hospitalized for pneumonia, you will at least ignore her advice and allow your child to have antibiotics per your doctor’s recommendations. Or if they are having a severe asthma exacerbation, you would allow steroids. It could save their life. But Dr. Tenpenny would recommend neither of those things.
My concern, the thing that made me want to write, is that you are putting a lot of eggs in the Tenpenny basket, and I just want you to be very cautious in verifying the things that she says.
1000+ hours of “research” are meaningless if her intent is merely to confirm her own biases and that of her customers. The coming holiday weeks will be busy, but I hope to be able to take a little time to demonstrate, in rational detail, at least small fraction of the misinformation and outright falsehoods that you may have read on her site.
I am glad you take this topic seriously, as vaccine preventable disease is a serious issue. My hope is that you are making an honest effort to verify the accuracy of antivaccine claims. When I look at the totality of evidence, the risk/benefit ratio of vaccinations appears overwhelmingly favorable. If I didn’t, I would never vaccinate my own children.
Peace,
Nate
thanks for this, Nate. Will be doing some thinking and reading in good time. I do think that from what I’ve read of Dr Tenpenny, including your quote, is that there is a suggestion that this theory is something that MAY be something worth investigating. She doesn’t “assert” that theory in that article – she “suggests” it as a possible theory. In the case of medical treatment, I would most likely go with what the doctors say. In the case of prevention, well, I’m still not sure. But, as I say, I will be thinking, reading and praying further on this issue.
Nate,
I’m interested in what your thoughts are as a pediatrician. You said you have been on Dr. Tenpenny’s site so you obviously have looked at least a little into both sides. What is your opinion on childhood vaccines?
Respectfully,
Regen
Hi All
The germ is nothing theory worries me immensly and reminds me of the Manto/Thabo madness which caused and continues to cause hundreds of thousands of people to suffer with HIV
3 points:
1) Just because somebody claims Pastuer recanted something on his deathbed (how dramatic!), does not mean he did. This statement is not even made in his own biography, but someone else’s. Please read this site to read what his own biography said about his final days:
http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/pasteur.htm
Even if for arguments sake he did recant it, does not make what he claimed any less true or any less proven again and again. If Newton recanted on his deathbed in a delirium that the apple did not fall that does not mean gravity does not exist.
2) The germ is nothing theory does not make sense to anybody who works with infectious diseases where exposure is known to result in outbreaks of disease. This is especially true for highly virulent and infectious diseases who do not care if you are adult and healthy – like Ebola, like SARS, like chickenpox in the unexposed, like the commen cold. I who consider myself healthy, have contracted both chickenpox and measles in my adulthood after treating children with these conditions. Taryn, you must have seen this again and again with your kids – when one gets a cold, very often the others all get it too (as well as yourself sometimes)
3) If those who make the claims were so sure and wished to prove their points, then why not make themselves available to be exposed/injected with some of the diseases like HIV, Ebola, Measles, TB. If they remained disease free then people would be forced to take notice.
Nate – where do you work. I am also a paediatrician, and it is good to get some support in this debate :
Hi Lloyd – the germ is nothing stuff is new to me completely. And, it doesn’t sit well with me either. Your points 1 and 2 I agree with. I also think that it doesn’t take into account The Fall and the fact that no matter how much control we have over our diets etc, our bodies will fail ultimately. Otherwise, the argument taken to its nth degree would negate death. I imagine that your 3rd point would be argued that all of our immune systems are already compromised due to toxicity of our environments. Do you not think that there is some value in the idea that our immune systems are greatly compromised by the toxins we are exposed to daily that it makes us more prone to getting diseases? I don’t want to throw western medicine out with the bath water – although, with vaccines and all the toxicity involved and side effects, I’m inclined not to get in that bath at all
Nate is American – I’m also curious to know where in the US
Thank you to everyone so far for your mature handling of the subject. I’m loath to keep the debate going if it degenerates into petty sarcasm and mud-slinging. It’s refreshing to take part in a discussion like this without the nastiness that I often times see elsewhere.
Taryn
Nate and Lloyd, I am a family nurse practitioner and truly am not here to debate for the sake of debate. I really am interested in the exchange of ideas and search for the truth. It is so refreshing to be able to discuss the topic with 2 pediatricians that are not hostile and are willing to share why they believe what they believe. Most “pro vaccine” doctors will say that all vaccines are great and side effects are 1 in a million. I think any clinician that is true to themselves would at least say that there are some unwanted side effects of stimulating the immune system in this way (asthma, allergies, iddm etc.) Now for some it may be worth the risk. Have we gone overboard as a nation in trying to prevent usually mild disease? Maybe our focus on vaccinating should be limited to life threatening illness and then be used case by case instead of shot gun approach. To me it is obvious that autism is not purely genetic and vaccines play a role in most of the cases. To deny that vaccines could possibly play a role in this new epidemic is what makes me suspicious of most “pro vaccine” doctors. What vaccines make sense to you and which ones don’t?
Hi Regan and Taryn
I agree that with this topic it is so easy to become emotional – infact there are a few occasions i have taken a deep breath and gone back and changed something i have written
Regan – a family practice practioner is such an important job and it is easy to sway people one way or the other, including about vaccines.
In medicine and science it is so important to deal with evidence and fact. That is why i worry about some of your statements. For example – “To me it is obvious that autism is not purely genetic and vaccines play a role in most of the cases”. Now there is absolutely no scientific evidence that this is true. The one study that hinted at this was shown to be severely flawed and the doctor involved has been struck off the medical role for this. Numerous other larger, well controlled and better studies have shown there is NO link. So the choice is either to trust science and research or conclude that either there is a big conpiracy covering this up (which believe me there is no way this could happen) or somehow your gur feel is better than a multitude of experts and fact.”
If there was evidence to the contary, believe me i – and almost all medical practioners -would be just as against vaccines – however – one cannot go on feeling, anecdote or association alone.
Remember that vaccines are given the first 5 years of life – the same time that autism is first noticed. Because of the time frames, it is no wonder people were worried about them. However, as of now, we still do not know why autism is increasing but the evidence at the moment is that it is NOT vaccines. To blame something on association alone is dangerous. I could say the kids of today watch more Barney – Barney therefore causes autism. Or more children die in car accidents now than 10 years ago. Also, more parents are buckling their children into car seats now than 10 years ago. THERFORE buckling children into car seats causes more deaths – clearly wrong logic (infact the opposite to the actual truth). The real truth may be that there are more cars on the road, or that parents are talking on cell phones or some other reason which needs to be PROVEN!
Your other statement “I think any clinician that is true to themselves would at least say that there are some unwanted side effects of stimulating the immune system in this way (asthma, allergies, iddm etc.) “. Again there is NO PROOF of this. Infact no clinician that is true to themselves would make this statement.
I hope you understand my point. Anecdote and gut feel are out – evidence is in. Also i am not saying there are no side-effects of vaccines, but let us not blame unjustifiably for all sorts of ills that they do not cause!
Which vaccines to give? I am not sure where you live and my answer depends a little on where you live.
There are 2 reasons to give vaccines – protect the individual and protect the herd (population). By vaccinating a large enough proportion of the population, the disease cannot get a foothold. If this rate drops significantly then you can get disease outbreaks. In well off first world countries this may not be so bad but in poorer countries it could be disasterous.
For the individual: The risk of polio and diptheria are almost zero. Pertussis (whooping cough) still occurs, as does tetanus but these are also rare. Pneumococcal and H.Influeza cause meningitis, pneumonia and otitis media and i would recommend these to everyone – rich and poor. Measles – yes. Chickenpox – maybe (usually a mild disease in children but they are infectious for a long time) Rubella – yes for girls. Rotavirus – yes. HPV – yes for adolescent girls (decreases cervical cancer)
Personally, my chldren have been fully vaccinated, including chickenpox.
My final point is directed to Taryn. You make a lot of claims about the toxicity about the ingredients of vaccines. However, the doses required to cause harm are massive – certainly much much more than is in the tiny vaccines. I can’t believe any pharmaceutical company or regulatory body like the FDA would approve these ingredients if they were known to be harmful – they would be sued. Is there any proof – or is it all theoretical that the tiny doses are harmful? I’m sure you would find similar ingredients in food – as it also needs preservitives
Hi Lloyd, thanks for your response. I think you are assuming I believe that autism is a direct result of mercury or MMR. I do not. Russell Blaylock is a neurosurgeon that claims “excitotoxicity” may be a factor. He has the peer reviewed articles to back this up. Basically the immune system attacks the brain due to the way the vaccines stimulate the immune system.
Asthma:
1997 Epidemiology published a study comparing asthma and allergy rates in unvaxed vs kids that got a tetanus vaccine. None of the unvaccinated kids has asthmatic episodes before 10 years of age. In the vaxed kids 23% had asthma. Kemp, et al “Is infant immunization a risk factor for childhood asthma or allergy”
Children who recieve DPT or Tetanus vaccines are significantly more likely to develop a history of asthma . Out of 14000 kids studied, a child who rec’d tetanus vaccine was twice as likely to develop asthma. Hurwitz et al “Effects of diptheria-tetanus-pertussis or tetanus vaccination on allergies and allergy related respiratory symptoms among children and adolescents in the United States”
Children diagnosed with asthma are five times more likely to have received the pertussis vaccine Odent et al “Pertussis vaccination and asthma: is there a link”
Vaccinated children were 120% more likely to have asthma than unvaccinated children 2007 Generation rescue study
Also some of the vaccine inserts list asthma in their side effects.
Thanks Regan
I will try and look some of these up tomorrow and see if there are other studies out there.
I was not aware of this, but am willing to be convinced by good evidence.
Best,
Lloyd
PS: Are there any good studies around autism that show a link that you know of – i have only heard of the ones that say there is no link
There are no studies linking the two because there will never be funding for a study comparing vaccinated vs unvaccinated kids and autism rates. You’d think that if there was no link then we would have already done that and put the topic to rest. It has been said ” we can’t not vaccinate kids and put them at risk for a study” but that is nonsense. There are millions of unvaccinated kids and families who would be glad to participate. Homefirst practice in Chicago has 30,000 kids in the practice and no autism. They don’t vaccinate at that practice. The Amish have no autism in unvaccinated kids. I thought the same thing a few years ago. That if all this was true the FDA would surely step in or the AMA. Its just not the case. Here is an MD talking about the pharmaceutical companies and how they fake studies, write curriculum for medical schools etc.
http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/beyond-belief-candles-in-the-dark/beatrice-golomb
Diabetes:
Rubella virus can cause diabetes
Menser et al. “Rubella infection and diabetes mellitus” Lancet
Coulter, Harris “Childhood vaccinations and Juvenile Onset diabetes” Congressional tesimony
Numazaki et al. “infection of cultured human fetal pancreatic islet cells by rubella virus”
Hep B vaccine and diabetes:
“Childhood immunisation and diabetes mellitus” New Zealand Medical Journal 1996
“The diabetes epidemic and hepatitis B vaccine” New Zealand Medical Journal 1996
Hib vaccine causes a 26% increase in diabetes
“Association between type 1 diabetes and Hib vaccine” British Medical Journal 1999
“Clustering of Cases of IDDM occuring three years after HIB immunization support causal relationship between immunization and IDDM” Autoimmunity 2002
“Haemophilus vaccine study in Finland supports a relationship between vaccines and diabetes” http://www.vaccines.net
Hi Regen
You are correct, there are no studies comparing vaccinated vs unvaccinated children and autism. However Dr. Andrew Wakefield did one of the most controversial vaccine-causing-autism studies ever done, and medical authorities went to extremes to silence him. You can view the interview here: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/04/10/wakefield-interview.aspx
Linnie
has anyone actually read Dr Wakefield’s book “Callous Disregard”? Apparently the title was taken from a term used in the trial against him. He was accused of callous disregard for the kids he was observing. I’ve read quite a bit about the saga from both sides (including the wikipedia article). After watching Regen’s link: http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/beyond-belief-candles-in-the-dark/beatrice-golomb about the corruption of in the medical research world, I’m wondering if there is validity in what Dr Wakefield says about how he was wrongly discredited. I’ve not read the book tho. I’d be really interested to have a pro vaccine med doc read the book to ascertain whether they can uncover discrepancies that I wouldn’t see. Any doc wanting to take up the challenge???
Hi Regan
I am confused about your statement about no studies about autism and vaccination. I found many, many studies showing no link. Below are just a few of them. Also your statement that there will never be funding shows a poor understanding of how research works. Funding can be obtained from many different sources – with drug companies being only one of them. Please do not think the drug companies control medical research. Universities, individuals, groups etc can all fund research. How could one explain the many, many, many drugs and treatments that are no longer used because studies have shown they are harmful or of no benefit.
I for example could obtain ethical permission from my university and provided there was an autism database, easily compare the rates of vaccination to the general population (if this data was available). There would be no need to even get funding.
If you are talking about doube-blind placebo controlled trials then no – these will not be done because it is not ethical to withhold vaccinations from some children and expose them to potential disease.
However, the studies you are quoting linking vaccination to IDDM, Asthma etc are also not double-blind, placebo controlled but you are happy to quote them, so i presume this is not too important to you. How do you explain that these studies happened or were allowed to happen but autism studies would not be allowed to happen – that doesn’t make sense.
http://www.safeminds.org/research/library/20021107.pdf
http://www.morrisonlucas.com/GL/vaccines/Lancet_353_2026_autism_and_measles_no_evidence.pdf
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/1/2/PREPUB+HISTORY+OF+MUMPS/PREPUB/PREPUB/ABSTRACT/COMMENTS/abstract/
http://www.childrensautism.ca/Research/Autism%20and%20MMR%20Vacination%20Laid%20to%20Rest-DeStefano,%20Chen.pdf
http://journal.shouxi.net/qikan/article.php?id=178814
re: Vaccinations and allergic disease. I was not aware of the possible link – thank you. However, in that first study they could only find 25 children who were not vaccinated, which makes the study less powerful. Below is a very nice article where they looked at children from 56 countries and pooled the data. Their conclusion is that vaccination uptake is unlikely to explain the incidence of allergy
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/reprint/91/7/1126.pdf
About Andrew Wakeford:
Please read the wikipedia aricle about him : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield
I have read callous disregard. It is an in depth story of what happened to Dr. Wakefield. Not much vaccine information in that particular book. Lloyd, medical journals receive huge amounts of money from pharmaceutical companies. Editors of journals have been fired for publishing studies that are damaging to pharmaceutical companies or their drugs because they lose substantial amounts of money.
I have already spoken to the problem of not vaccinating kids for study purposes. Why not take 500,000 of the unvaccinated kids that are unvaccinated by parental choice, and compare autism rates? If there are just as many vaccinated kids with autism as non vaccinated kids with autism then the case is closed. Why hasn’t this been done? It seems like there is such denial that vaccines can possibly cause problems in this country that we can’t see right in front of our faces. Autism has gone from 1:10000 to 1:120. Asthma and allergies and autoimmune disease has also skyrocketed. One physician in Chicago has 30,000 patients that are not vaccinated and has NO autism and markedly reduced asthma allergies and diabetes, so much that the insurance company contacted him to ask why. (Mayer Eisenstein) Why are we so willing to ignore this and say that a link has to be proved by a double blinded placebo study? Why arent we saying “why are the kids so sick now? Prove to us that vaccines are safe? I will look further into your articles. It is very hard to go from “pro vaccine” to skeptic. I hope that you will look further into the evidence presented by other physicians. You said you could compare rates from your university. Why don’t you start there? Compare vaccinated vs non vaccinated rates of autism and asthma.
At the request of one of the fans on Dr. Tenpenny’s FB page, the following is a copy of a comment I posted earlier today, in turn followed by additional input…
“Regen, the Danish studies are a sham; not only were they comparing apples to oranges, they even admitted so in their abstract, yet acted as though it had no significant bearing on the outcome. The reality is that, starting in 1993 (when Den…mark had discontinued the use of thimerosal in vaccines), the number of study cases of autism counted were from a population six times greater than that used in the previous years (they began counting outpatient diagnoses as well as inpatient), assuring an increase in the incidence of autism. Moreover, in the latter years of the study they used revised diagnostic criteria for autism, which also led to an increase in incidence. That did not prevent the Institute of Medicine from having the audacity to use the study to support their statement that not only was there no link between thimerosal and autism, but there was no longer even any need to research the possibility!, which I consider a criminal act. An excellent resource:
http://www.safeminds.org/research/Blaxill-DenmarkAutismThimerosalPediatrics.pdf
“Radiologist Dr. David Ayoub thoroughly explained the flaws in the whole group of studies used by the IOM, in a videoed seminar that can be viewed at:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6890106663412840646&hl=en#
“There are a handful of studies that replicated the findings of Dr. Wakefield’s group, with even more poignant results; not only were measles found in the guts of all the analyzed autistic/gastrointestinally affected kids who were the subjects of one of the studies, but they were ultimately identified as the vaccine strain of the disease:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-388051/Scientists-fear-MMR-link-autism.html
“When you read the language describing study method, it’s apparent that between the subject groupings, the adjustments made for “confounding factors” and many other variables, that any study can be formatted to support virtually any opinion. Still the blatant point of fact is that thousands of parents have reported – and continue to report – walking into a pediatrician’s office for vaccinations for their healthy child, and walking out with an obviously damaged son or daughter. The obvious question is, would the child have been damaged, all too often regressing to the point of ASD diagnosis, had he or she not been vaccinated? There are several studies showing that they very most likely would not have been:
http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/quick-compare-2/
“There are similar studies in progress that are national in scope, and we can only hope that they are completed successfully, whatever the findings.”
My tone in the above comment is absolutely more pointed and opinionated than my previous posts to this blog, with no apologies. After hundreds of hours of research I am very firm in my opinions, and I do indeed consider the picture painted by the medical establishment – and I include government and the vaccine industry – of vaccine damage as egregious misinformation, vs the reality of the pervasiveness of said damage. I am by no means asserting that doctors such as the two gentlemen adding their posts to this blog are not sincere in their beliefs or well-meaning. It’s simply a matter of trust.
There is a current CDC video of the director of their vaccine division, urging doctors to fulfill what he says is a first-ever recommendation for “universal flu vaccination” – more specifically, vaccination for everyone except babies under six months of age and those for whom vaccination is contraindicated. He then goes on to list groups that are already immunocompromised, such as asthmatics, as among those that should be vaccinated, when existing immune system disorder contraindicates vaccination – though I’m sure that point will be argued by some. But the good officer and gentleman (the CDC is apparently a military, not a civilian, entity) goes on in a slightly more emotional voice to emphasize that children five years old and younger are particularly vulnerable and therefore should be vaccinated; and, within that group, kids two years old and younger are even more particularly vulnerable and thus should be vaccinated. Afluria is, to my knowledge, the most widely distributed of the current “combination” flu vaccines in the United States. It triggered febrile seizures in Australian kids earlier this year, at ten times the “expected” rate (some have expressed dismay that there is any “expected” rate of seizures after flu vaccination) as reported by Australian newspapers. Indeed, Australia ultimately banned its use in kids under six – the precise age ranges the CDC representative urges get vaccinated.
As a parent and grandparent, this infuriates me. This is an emotional issue indeed. We still follow the Nuremberg Code, do we not? It is the absolute responsibility of not only the doctor in the CDC video, but every public health entity, to openly, publicly and consistently notify us of this type of potential damage before asking for our consent to the respective vaccination. What we get instead is the repeated mantra that vaccines are safe and effective, which implies there is no associated risk. Ask the parents of the hospitalized kids their opinion of the quality of the information they received.
There are, unfortunately, scores of examples like this. Lloyd points out that while the graphs I referenced in my earlier comments show measles mortality rates to have dropped by 95% in the decades before the introduction of the vaccine, they show the incidence rate remained essentially the same. But why in the world should the public be in essence urged to panic when the reality is that the likelihood of death is statistically insignificant; the disease is relatively harmless; the “immunization” offered by the vaccine is temporary, and the disease is much more potentially harmful if contracted after childhood; when contracted naturally in childhood there is a resulting and long-lived natural immunity; and the vaccines carry many other possible adverse reactions, some of which offer lifelong debilitation – check the VAERS records for confirmation, bearing in mind that it is generally agreed that only somewhere between 1% – 10% of adverse events actually get reported. As an exclamation point I will relate my own experience in the office of my grandson’s pediatrician, when, to my shock, he proceeded to literally rattle off death statistic after death statistic, disease after disease, in his effort to solicit our consent to further vaccinations for the boy. I emphasize they were specifically death statistics; naturally, since a running account of all the kids who contracted the disease, suffered the symptoms and got well would not have the motivational effect desired…thus my musings about the importance of the 95% drop in the measles mortality rate prior to the introduction of the vaccine.
Part and parcel of this equation is a return to the belief – borne out by experience – that the immune system is a wonder to behold, and, by and large, incredibly efficient; and that the result of disease successfully eliminated is increased strength.
It’s trust in the medical establishment, folks – trust that’s gone in many of us, and going in many more, in increasing numbers on a daily basis, and with good reason. Doctors need to open their eyes to, and avail themselves of, the wealth of valid information, as have some of their colleagues.
To those who believe the pharmaceutical industry are covering up please explain this to me
You you seriously want me to believe that for 20-30 years the pharmaceutical industry has managed to cover up that not only are vaccines useless, but they are actually harming our children?
In 20-30 years there has been NOT ONE employee who had a conscience or decided to spill the beans (even anonymously). And you have to admit the press would go wild if anyone had done this. These are employees who themselves are mothers, fathers, uncles and aunts. Not one?
Remember that there are probably over 50 companies who are often bitter rivals and do not work together. This spread out accross the world – and yet not a single company or person had enough integrity or morals to confess what was going on? Even after the company closed down or they retired?
You have to admit that would be highly unlikely. No – impossible.
And there would have to be colusion with large sections of the medical fraternity. Now most (not all) doctors, especially those who work with children actually do want the best for their patients. and are highly ethical and moral. They are also reasonably well paid and do not actually like the business and profit ethos amongst pharmaceutical companies. And yet the conspiracy theorists claim that doctors are bribed to falsify studies, cover up statistics and only do research specifically ordered by the puppet-master pharmaceutical companies? Do you want me to believe that in 20-30years not one doctor would come forward to say he was bribed (or offered a bribe) or that research was falsified. Not one doctor would complain or accuse another of unethical methods?
This hardly seems likely. No – impossible.
There are claims that all medical schools and medical journals are under the control of the big companies. This is done secretly and not a single medical school, journal or member of the administration ever blows the whistle on this? This in a profession that is meant to be caring and ethically better than most?
This hardly seems likely!
It would have to be the most well kept secret EVER in the history of the world – spanning decades, thousands of people, hundreds of countries.
For every 1 medically trained person anti-vaccine there are 10000 who are pro-vaccine. Is it more likely that the 10000 are all brainwashed, or that the one is misguided?
Many of the ‘converts’ of anti-vaccination have done lots of research – but since when is trawling the internet looking at other people’s misinterpretation and twisting of the facts proper research? Why does nobody actually do some proper research and publish it – that is the only way to get noticed. And i’m not talking about tiny studies or fatally flawed studies like the Wakefield study. Anybody who still clings to that terribly poor and compromised study (he was getting money from the lawyers representing children with autism) really is grasping at straws when it comes to research.
And don’t come with the story research or publication is blocked by the big companies because that is totally not true and a convient way to explain lack of evidence.
I’m interested to see if anyone has any answers to my questions
Lloyd, I have not gotten my information from blogs. I have spent 3 years reading other physicians books, cdc information, vaers reported data, and medical journals. I did not come with an agenda. I still don’t have one. I have seen kids become healthier after their parents have stopped vaccinating. Look into how vaccines skew the immune system to the Th2 side when it should be more towards Th1 immunity as a baby ages. Th2 skewing can cause asthma and allergies and susceptibility to infections.
As far as cover ups look at how the industry played games with their information at simpsonwood Georgia. Just google it. No one is claiming that everyone involved is deliberately doing harm to kids. Just look at how tobacco was defended for so long because we didn’t have conclusive studies that it caused cancer. Lead in paint, asbestos and mesothelioma, sv40 virus in polio, and now finally the FDA has admitted that mercury in dental amalgams may be problematic. We don’t have a great track record. Gov’t is more concerned about herd immunity than the individual. They also took liability away from vaccine makers so the responsibility is on our gov’t if they were wrong.
Dr. John Virapen is one such pharmaceutical insider that came out when he had his own child was born. He was GM of eli lily in Sweden. He says we are killing our children.
http://john-virapen.com/en/home.html
Here is an interview with an anonymous vaccine worker(you said anonymous was okay in your last post):
http://www.alternative-doctor.com/vaccination/rappaport.htm
There is a huge amount of conflict of interest at all decision making levels for vaccine approval and scheduling.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/30104/
http://www.dddmag.com/news-Congress-Pushing-CDC-for-Better-Conflict-of-Interest-Reporting-42610.aspx
I agree, it sounds outrageous that government can be bought, but it wouldn’t be the first time. We started with a good idea in vaccines but it is out of control and its big business.
The anonymous worker interview was interesting until the following:
Q: Is Thabo Mbeki, the president of South Africa, aware of the situation?
A: I would say he is partially aware. Perhaps he is not utterly convinced, but he is on the way to realizing the whole truth. He already knows that HIV is a hoax. He knows that the AIDS drugs are poisons which destroy the immune system. He also knows that if he speaks out, in any way, about the vaccine issue, he will be branded a lunatic. He has enough trouble after his stand on the AIDS issue
I’m sorry, but anyone who believes that loses 100% credibility and just makes me angry. Perhaps he should ask the families of the 300 000 people estimated to have died here in South Africa because of AIDS denialism. I have had to watch far to many HIV positive children die to not be affected emotionally by this issue.
I also know enough about drug companies to know they are after profits above all else. However i still stand by my previous posting about how it would be impossible to cover up the fact vaccines do not work or cause harm. The truth always comes out, and with the huge number of people and companies involved it would have done so a long time ago – especially on an issue as emotive and sensitive as this.
Simpsonwood: Here is the doctor who did the study explaining what happened:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/113/4/932
Hi
Thank goodness for a peaceful debate! I would like to give some info on keeping one healthy without vaccines. Germs will not survive in a body that is given the proper nutrients. IF you do get sick the body will be able to fight off the disease. Eating nutrient dense foods and avoiding processed/all foods in the industrial food system is really the key, not vaccines. Lloyd you said yourself that you survived chickenpox and measles. I wonder were you eating foods from the the industrial food system when you got sick? Please take the time to look into the following resources.
http://www.westonaprice.org/
Book: Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston A. Price
Dr. Price studied folks that ate nutrient dense food had no health care and were mostly free from disease and tooth decay. “For over ten years, he traveled to isolated parts of the globe to study the health of populations untouched by western civilization.”
http://www.westonaprice.org/abcs-of-nutrition/475-principles-of-healthy-diets.html
oh they are another group that does not support vaccines….doctors (MD’s) are included in this group!
Warmly,
Jen
Hib was my sticking point. I really struggled with the risk/benefit of this vaccine. I felt personally that the risk of the vaccine, if it does increase suceptibility to hib for 1-2 weeks, was greater than the risk of disease for a breastfed child not in daycare. I am still concerned because Hib vaccine has obviously reduced meningitis and saved lives. I just am not comfortable knowingly supressing my childs immune system for that 1-2 week period, especially if she carries hib in her nose as many kids do. That is just a personal opinion for my own situation. Here is what I found on hib:
Studies from Science News warned of increased susceptibility to the disease during the first 7 days after vaccination. Even the AAP has warned doctors to look for signs of the disease following vaccination (AAP policy statement). Several studies found that Hib vaccinated children are up to 6 times more likely than non Hib vaccinated children to contract Hib during the first week following vaccination. (Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal and JAMA). In another study, children who got Hib 3 weeks after their vaccination, 70% developed Meningitis. Additional research shows that antibody levels will decline rather than increase following Hib vaccination.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2107522
Disease caused by Haemophilus influenzae type b in the immediate period after homologous immunization: immunologic investigation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2785591
Decline in serum antibody to the capsule of Haemophilus influenzae type b in the immediate postimmunization period.
http://www.wellwithin1.com/HIBPneu1993-2006LettersA.pdf
http://www.wellwithin1.com/HIBPneu1993-2006LettersB.pdf
Regen, thanks for the links, and I am pleased that you go to the primary literature in your research. Though, I am surprised that the studies you have cited compel you to not vaccinate for Hib.
The first study concerns the PRP vaccine, which has not been on the market for decades (here anyway). It was not a very efficacious vaccine and was not effective in children under two at all. Still, even with that vaccine, if a week or two of caution is warranted, it still had the benefit of much longer-lasting immunity to Hib for children over two.
The second study demonstrated that a the decrease in circular antibodies was significantly more modest in children with the conjugate vaccine versus the PRP vaccine which it replaced, and does not indicate that there was an increase in meningitis within the week following the vaccine. Other studies have shown that the antibody change for the conjugate vaccines are not statistically significant and the conjugate vaccine does not carry this risk for children, such as:
“Serum anticapsular antibody response in the first week after immunization of adults and infants with the Haemophilus influenzae type b-Neisseria meningitidis outer membrane protein complex conjugate vaccine.” By Daum et al 1991:
“Of the children, 6 (75%) of 8 and 17 (77%) of 23 had a decrease in antibody in serum obtained on day 2-3 after the first or second dose, respectively, the magnitude of which directly correlated with the preimmunization antibody concentration. However, the geometric mean did not decrease significantly. Within 1 week of immunization, 85% of infants had an increase in antibody, significantly greater after the second dose than after the first.”
The passage you quoted from another web site didn’t include full citations, making it very difficult to verify their claims. But since they fail to mention that meningitis constitues ~2/3 of all invasive Hib disease, it makes me question their level of research. It seems to me to be a prime example of the spin that antivaccine sites put on their articles.
Hi all current and future commenters.
I have been following this debate closely, and will continue to investigate. I appreciate the input very much.
Please continue to take care to be respectful. Sweeping statements that paint all doctors as evil (unwitting or not) or suggest that there is absolutely no good in allopathic medicine or the people who are involved in it, is not only unwise, in that it diminishes credibility, but it is also disrespectful.
Let’s keep it more than civil – let’s keep it respectful
Regen: The last two links in your post are the most confusing to me. They appear to be miscellaneous letters from people who think that pneumococcal meningitis replaced hib meningitis. That’s fine for these individuals to think, but it was not likely at the time(since the two pathogens do not compete in the way that each pathogen’s serotypes do) and in fact did not occur. Though some areas of the country have had increases and decreases in pneumococcal disease as part of its natural course, studies have not shown a relation to widespread Hib meningitis, such as:
“Naturally Fluctuating Low Incidence of Invasive Pneumococcal Infections Not Affected By Large-Scale Haemophilus Influenzae Type B Vaccination” by Peltola et al 2010:
http://journals.lww.com/pidj/Abstract/2010/08000/Naturally_Fluctuating_Low_Incidence_of_Invasive.26.aspx
“Conclusions: Large-scale Hib vaccination does not increase the incidence of pneumococcal diseases which continue their year-to-year fluctuation at low levels.”
“The Elimination of Haemophilus influenzae Type b Meningitis
Following Conjugate Vaccine Introduction in Senegal” by Moussa et al 2010: http://www.afro.who.int/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=5803
“Among children less than age 1 year, the average annual Hib meningitis incidence decreased from 22 to 47 per 100,000 during 2003–2005 to 1.4 per 100,000 during 2007, while pneumococcal meningitis incidence remained stable.”
“Incidence of invasive pneumococcal disease in Sydney children, 1991–96″ by Liddle et al 2002:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1440-1754.1999.00333.x/abstract
“The incidence of childhood invasive pneumococcal disease in Sydney was stable during 1991–96 and comparable to rates reported from other industrialized countries. There was no evidence of any change in pneumococcal disease incidence with reduction in invasive Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib) disease following introduction of Hib immunization.”
“Bacterial Vaccines and Serotype Replacement: Lessons from Haemophilus influenzae and Prospects for Streptococcus pneumoniae” by Marc Lipsitch, epidemiologist: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol5no3/lipsitch.htm
“Serotype replacement has not been detected since the introduction of Hib conjugate vaccines. Studies of H. influenzae carriage in 700 children in Finland and 364 families in the United Kingdom found no evidence of increased carriage of non-b H. influenzae as a result of vaccination. Although increases in invasive disease from other nasopharyngeal bacteria have been reported since Hib vaccination began, no evidence of a causal link to Hib vaccination has been observed.“
The problem, in my opinion, is that sites like wellwithin1.com will not give out all the information, only the information that fits what they believe. It’s vital to look for all the evidence when encountering these kinds of assertions.
Correction: In the above comment I meant to say “Though some areas of the country have had increases and decreases in pneumococcal disease as part of its natural course, studies have not shown a relation to widespread Hib vaccination.”
Well, you made me think more about it. I just checked the Vaers site for vaccine reactions and the cdc admits only 1-10% actually get reported. There have been 6471 serious reactions from Hib vaccine. Assuming its 10% reported then that would be 64,000 serious reactions. There have been 2000 life threatening events or deaths (represents 20,000 if 10% reported). I just think the risk is greater from the vaccine. Its a tough one though. There are parents who have had kids die from the shot and parents who have lost kids to the disease. I think the most important thing is that parents have informed consent. Even if that is just allowing them to read the vaccine package insert side effects its better than nothing. Thank you for your kindness and openess. Nate and Lloyd, you both get 5 stars in my book! If only more pediatricians would be so willing to discuss without anger.
Regen,
On the VAERS site, you also would have read this:
“When evaluating data from VAERS, it is important to note that for any reported event, no cause-and-effect relationship has been established. Reports of all possible associations between vaccines and adverse events (possible side effects) are filed in VAERS. Therefore, VAERS collects data on any adverse event following vaccination, be it coincidental or truly caused by a vaccine. The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event.”
In fact, to look at VAERS data, it is required to click the link that says “I have read and understand the preceding statement.”
Also, anybody can report any event that occurs within a certain time period after vaccination to VAERS, no matter how peripheral the person is to the patient or how unlikely the event is related to the vaccine (car crashes, for example). It’s a self-reported system.
These are crucially important points when discussing VAERS, because every kind of adverse event has a “background rate”. So, yes, events are underreported to VAERS, but that does not mean in any way that there are 64,000 adverse events caused by vaccines, or 20,000 deaths caused by vaccines. Some of them may be, but a great many are going to be the “background rate” of that event.
VAERS data is important because it sets off red flags for researchers if an unexpected adverse event crops up, or there are more of a certain adverse event than would be expected in the “background rate.” It instigates studies to ascertain a relationship. But it cannot be used as a broadsword to claim that X number of events are caused by a vaccine.
To find out if there is a true association, you have to look at the actual studies. Take SIDS for example. Peak SIDS incidence is around 2-6 months of age. Shots are given around that time, so there are a lot of VAERS reports of SIDS following vaccinations. Are there more than expected given the background rate of SIDS? No. It turns out that vaccinated children are half as likely to die from SIDS:
“Do immunisations reduce the risk for SIDS? A meta-analysis.” by Vennemann et al 2007: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17400342
CONCLUSIONS: Immunisations are associated with a halving of the risk of SIDS. There are biological reasons why this association may be causal, but other factors, such as the healthy vaccinee effect, may be important. Immunisations should be part of the SIDS prevention campaigns.
I am curious about the source of your figures. Is that a search you did on VAERS yourself? If so, what were the parameters?
Peace,
Nate
Hi Nate,
Yes I searched HIb vaccine over all years and all life threatening reactions and deaths. I used cdc wonder on the vaers page. It just seems like we have bought the line “temporal association does not mean causation” At what point do we say Okay if the vaccines aren’t the cause then lets prove it and change the timing and see what happens. Sids peaks at 2 and 4 mos and autism starts showing up around MMR time. I’m tired of the phrase that the 2 cant be linked. Sometimes the obvious is just that. Why not postpone MMR to 3 years and prove that its not the cause? I get that we can’t leave babies “unprotected” so I guess delaying all vaccines to 6 mos would not be acceptable to many. Sure would like to see what happens to sids rate if that could be done. Sids rates in Japan went down when they postponed the dtap and the package inserts list sids on them. I’m not saying I believe all sids is vaccines. I realize there are prolonged qt intervals and other things that just happen.
Regen: I don’t think we have “bought the line” that temporal association does not equal causation. In fact, temporal association, in general, sparks research to find out if there is causation. In the case of SIDS, there is an inverse association.
We don’t change the schedule, because we have so much evidence that vaccination reduces SIDS. There is good reason to believe that if we delayed vaccination, SIDS would increase, and in addition, more children would also die from vaccine preventable disease. That would be simply irresponsible.
Similarly, MMR. Given the amount of literature that shows no link between MMR and autism, arbitrarily delaying MMR is likely to do nothing but make more children get measles.
If you have read on a website that SIDS rates decreased in Japan following the delay of DTaP to two years, I’m afraid you have been deceived. What decreased are claims of SIDS to the vaccine reporting system in Japan, which would obviously happen since SIDS by definition does not occur in two year olds. Rates of SIDS, on the other hand, increased steadily in Japan in the 70′s, 80′s and 90′s until the implementation of SIDS prevention strategies (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8838467). Pertussis incidence also increased in Japan, from 393 cases and no deaths in 1974 to 13,000 cases and 41 deaths in 1979 (http://tinyurl.com/2wadkjj). Those children are a perfect example of why we don’t change the schedule without an evidence-based reason to do so.
Package inserts are not evidence of causation, as they are legal, not medical, documents that often list side effects that occur too incredibly rarely to be able to determine causation occur no more frequently than placebo. That’s why they are also inappropriate as part of mandatory informed consent, Vaccine Information Statements (which list the side effects that are actually shown to be caused by vaccines) are part of informed consent here.
However, your earlier post implies to me that you believe parents are not allowed to see package inserts. I don’t know of any doctors that would refuse to allow the parent to have the package insert, and I would agree that any such doctor would be in the wrong.
Nate this was in the article you sent me:
In contrast, pneumococcal conjugate vaccine studies show considerable evidence of serotype replacement,
So the pneumococcal vaccine causes serotype replacement and they admit it. It also says:
Although increases in invasive disease from other nasopharyngeal bacteria have been reported since Hib vaccination began (23,24), no evidence of a causal link to Hib vaccination has been observed.
What does this mean? We see increases in other invasive disease since Hib shot but “temporal association is not causation”. When does temporal association matter to vaccine defenders? What about the 2 twins that dies within minutes of MMR vaccine on same day?
# Urwin G, Krohn JA, Deaver-Robinson K, Wenger JD, Farley MM, Group HIS. Invasive disease due to Haemophilus influenzae serotype f: clinical and epidemiological characteristics in the H. influenzae serotype b vaccine era. Clin Infect Dis 1996;22:1069-76.
# Baer M, Vuento R, Vesikari T. Increase in bacteraemic pneumococcal infections in children. Lancet 1995;345:661.
Regen, there is no question that there is some serotype replacement with pneumococcal vaccine, but to a much lesser extent than reduction by vaccination. This was in fact expected prior to the vaccine’s adoption, as evidenced by the 1999 CDC document you quoted. But, overall invasive pneumococcal disease in children under 5 has still been reduced by 70-80% despite the fraction of serotype replacement.
“Sustained Reductions in Invasive Pneumococcal
Disease in the Era of Conjugate Vaccine” by Pilishivli et al 2010: http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdf/10.1086/648593
“In our surveillance
areas, the overall IPD incidence in 2007 was 45% lower
for all age groups and 76% lower for children aged <5 years
compared with prevaccine baseline incidence."
Regarding "no evidence of a causal link to Hib vaccination has been observed" you asked, "What does this mean?" and "When does the temporal association matter?"
The temporal association always matters. It is a reason to investigate whether or not there is causation. In the case of Hib vaccination, numerous studies from around the world (of which I linked to three) showed no replacement with invasive pneumococcal disease. That's what was meant by "no evidence of a causal link… was observed." The hypothesis was studied and found not to be the case. This is the situation in other areas of vaccine "temporal associations" as well. With such a large number of people in the world (who can now get together on the internet), it is unavoidable to have lots of perceived temporal associations, even when there is no causality.
Besides the ruminations of anti-vaccine sites, there is precious little information about the tragic deaths of the twins in India, including no medical reports or autopsy statments yet. If it is an allergic reaction, it would follow that the twin would also be at high risk. The doctor would be quite negligent in administering the twin's vaccine while the first was having an adverse reaction, which is why it looks like the doctor is under investigation, and I would not defend him in the least.
Peace,
Nate
Corruption in journals:
http://www.ahrp.org/cms/content/view/734/9/
“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades as an editor of The New England Journal of …Medicine.”
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=vaccines+and+brain+development&aq=1
10 part series by neurosurgeon talking about how vaccines do alot more than stimulate antibodies. Skip part 1 and start on 2 (starts a little slow)
http://www.health.thesfile.com/children/vaccinations/vaccine-side-effects/sudden-infant-death-syndrome/
Regen, my apologies, but I don’t do videos. They take too much time to watch compared to reading text. If there is a transcript or summary of his assertions, I may be willing to read it, but since a retired neurosurgeon is far from an expert in immunology, I am not hopeful that he has strong evidence for his claims.
Regarding the Stephanie Cave excerpt, she uses the time-honored antivaccine tradition of cherry picking out small scale or preliminary studies that say what she wants, and chooses to ignore the large-scale or follow up research that was done at the time, like this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3493477
Not to mention all the research that has come out in the past decade since her book was published, including the meta-analysis I linked you to above. The research is quite clear that vaccinated children have less SIDS.
wow all you guys with your info!
Wish I had the time to follow every link closely. Just wanted to say to Nate, Lloyd and Regen a BIG thank you for putting in the time here.
I also wanted to ask Nate and Lloyd particularly – would you be open to agreeing that perhaps there is some validity in the anti-vax stance?
I am reading loads of convincing arguments from BOTH sides – including neurosurgeons, GPs, other paeds and a whole host of other medical field experts.. Craig says that since everyone has an agenda it is difficult to know the truth in this matter.
What concerns me is that despite the vaccine advocates stepping up the research and evidence, it seems that more medical people are starting to say that vaccines are a problem, not less. I’ve not heard of anyone (yet) that went from the anti-vax stance to the pro-vax stance. But I’ve heard plenty of the opposite. And I’m not talking about the lay person like me. I’m talking your medical peers and seniors too.
If more and more medical people are starting to say “this is probably not as innocent as it looks” is there not room for the medical opinion that while vaccines might not be all evil, they’re not all innocent and we need to investigate a lot more closely to determine the truth????
saying that vaccines are not as innocent as they’re purported to be, sur
Taryn, to address your two major points:
1.) “Would you be open to agreeing that perhaps there is some validity in the anti-vax stance?”
It’s more of a question of probability than validity. Science is a method that does not prove anything, it only lends evidence for or against a hypothesis. With any given study, there is the small possibility that the results are due to chance alone. When you have multiple studies, that chance still exists, but it becomes smaller and smaller. Is there a possibility that vaccines cause (insert bad thing here that is not recognized by the medical community)? Perhaps, but an extremely small chance in most cases, to the point that large scale studies have not been able to determine a link. Not something I want to bet my health on.
2.) “If more and more medical people are starting to say “this is probably not as innocent as it looks” is there not room for the medical opinion that while vaccines might not be all evil, they’re not all innocent and we need to investigate a lot more closely to determine the truth????”
There is hopefully always room for opinion, but it is frustrating when such people act as if the research has not been done when it has, and does not fit their desired outcome (i.e. SIDS). The reason this is frustrating is that it diverts funds and resources away from research that is actually promising in preventing, say, SIDS, in pursuit of further confirmation of something that is already strongly evidence-based.
In truth, vaccines are not all evil or all innocent, and can cause severe side effects. The question is always whether they are more beneficial than dangerous, and by how much. The studies of vaccinations, and the known science around them however, show an excellent benefit/risk ratio.
I disagree with your perception that anti-vaccine sentiment is rising in the medical community, rather, I think this is an artifact of the issue gaining national attention and bringing physicians with such beliefs out of the woodwork. I don’t know any physicians personally who don’t vaccinate their children, and I know a fair amout of physicians! I think Lloyd’s 98% figure is awfully generous.
Even if there was an increase, the fact that a very small number of antivaccine physicians has become a slightly larger very small number of antivaccine physicians does not change the evidence. And when I put a critical eye to these physicians, what they write, the quality of their “research,” etc., it makes me give them even less weight.
I had a classmate in medical school who was and HIV/AIDS denialist. It came out one day in a small group, and was pretty much jaw dropping to all of us at the table, as he tried to tell us how HIV does not cause AIDS. I don’t know where he is now, but I would not be surprised to see AIDS denialist websites lifting him up as part of “the rising number of physicians who see through the HIV deception.”
My point is that doctors of all persuasions are out there. But looking at the antivaccine doctors we have brough up so far, we have:
Dr. Tenpenny,retired ER adult ER physician, who I have discussed in detail already. Within the last couple of months she had a Facebook post where she said she had never heard of Norovirus (a pretty common virus you learn about in your first year of medical school). Sells books, DVDs and suppplements from her website.
Dr. Blaylock, a retired neurosurgeon who now sells books and supplements. Also believes that aspartame causes MS and brain tumors despite extensive research to the contrary. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17828671. Also sells books and “Brain Repair Formula” from his website.
Dr. Mercola, complete germ theory denier who sells subscriptions to his website and supplements as well as a wide variety of products
Dr. Wakefield, who was on the payroll of lawyers intending to prove an autism/MMR link, and also had a patent on his very own single measles vaccine.
Then of course there are people like Dr Sears, who invented a new vaccine schedule which is conveniently laid out for you if he buys his book. Also sells a wide variety of products including his own brand of special vitamins. And Dr. Gordon, who is Jenny McCarthy’s pediatrician, does not accept insurance, and has developed a profitable niche as the antivaccine pediatrician to the rich. These are not the people I trust when I make medical decisions.
There may certainly be genuine physicians out there who believe that vaccines are more harmful than medicine recognizes, but the doctors above seem to be the best that the movement has to offer up. What I don’t see are actual experts in immunology, epidemiology autism, etc. I certainly don’t feel, based on their arguments and credentials, that any of the above people have done a better job of assessing the evdience than I have, or virtually every expert in the field, so I am confident when I recommend vaccinations.
Whew, long post. Anyway, though you may find it hard to discern the truth in this matter, but considering the source of the argument, making sure you have made an honest effort to look for a valid counterargument, and seeking the opinion of actual experts is wise.
And I am one of those medical professionals that crossed over …..
I am very aware of the situation because my daughter (now 2) had an adverse reaction to her vaccinations. At 9 months , just after her measels she started with staring episodes, lost all eye contact and stopped all babbling. This was obviously the final vaccine that tipped her over the edge but in hindsight I realize her week long screaming following each set of clinic visits was not normal. I should have known then but just told myself it was normal
In my training we were taught irritability was common following vaccinations – I did my nursing degree at UKZN (with community nursing, midwifery and psychiatric nursing) and went on to do my post grad diploma in operating room technique, I find the O.R. far more exciting and love being a scrub sister.
Point being I have been there, studied what the pharmaceutical companies wanted me to study and vaccinated hundreds of babies during my training. I actually feel like I was just a sales rep for the pharmaceutical giants.. a drug mule !
However, back to my story, this crying was a typical,”cerebral cry” she would arch her back and literally throw her head back with a high pitched scream. My mother (who is also a nursing sister as well as advanced life support paramedic and has her own company teaching Peadiatric Advanced Life Support, Advanced Cardiac life support courses to doctors ie is highly skilled,) even came in once when she was 3 months old and said “thats a cerebral cry” and I said “yes, but she just had her vaccines and its meant to be normal”
I now see it was an obvious reaction to that vaccination load and clearly she had some form of brain irritability.
At 9 months when she rapidly regressed I acted very quickly and went all natural, found an excellent homeopath and started treating her. Staring ceased within a couple days and eye contact returned. Speech has been delayed but finally (in the last 2 weeks) she has started with “mama”, “no” and “woof”. She is perfectly normal now and will catch up to the others in time.
I have since met SO MANY parents with the same story, some of their kids have aspergers, many have asthma, others have ADHD some were constantly sick until they went the homeopathic rout and detoxed- basically all the kids had problems with their immune system and yes we cant always blame vaccines but I think they do play a role.
I am so angry at the medical profession and the lack of training that we acquire regarding vaccination risks. Almost ALL clinic sisters and most paeds (most healthcare personnel) have no idea what the real risks are.
I was only ever taught the good it can do with side effects being minimal.
I feel parents do not have enough information to make a FULLY INFORMED decision when giving consent for this medical procedure to be performed on their children.
PARENTS ARE BULLIED INTO CONFORMED COMPLIANCE AS OPPOSED TO GIVING THEIR INFORMED CONSENT !!!!
I have an excellent example where the healthcare professionals knowledge is limited to the supposed “benefits” of vaccination only :
My friend that studied with me at UKZN went on to work in a baby clinic(STORKS NEST) and was sent on all the vaccine conferences, updates etc etc. (events sponsored by the pharmaceutical companies of course, flown all over south africa etc)
For example : I asked her if she knew that on the package inserts they all state “this product has not been tested for carcinogenic and mutogenic effects” – she had no idea and she is the expert on this subject !!!! They are taught what the pharmaceuticals want them to know. Thats it. So the parents at the receiving end will never get the full list of pros(not that there are any) and cons and cant possibly be giving informed consent to vaccination.
The vaccine issue is far more complex than the autism debate. The immune system is challenged in absolute unnatural circumstances and subjected to an array of toxins, carcinogens etc. What baffles me is the products ingredients are know carcinogens , the small print states that they have no idea whether this vaccine will cause cancer, yet we have been brainwashed into believing that we NEED to vaccinate. Its crazy !!!!
I am 39 weeks pregnant at the moment and no vaccine will come anywhere near my second child.(nor the vit K shot and eye ointment) That is why I am so interested in SA law and where I stand legally. Thanks goodness we dont live in the USA, their laws are clamping down and making it impossible for freedom of vaccine choice.
I found a wonderful 4 1/2 minute video that may be interesting for parents who wish to learn more about the issue, It is the recent ” chalkboard campaign” done by Vaxtruth : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwMBttvAu5k
Hi Taryn
It has been interesting taking part in this discussion – i admit i didn’t know much about the ant-vaccine stance before this and thanks especially to Regan for showing his point of view and the research he has done.
Craig says everyone has an agenda. I however, and most doctors have NO agenda. If vaccines don’t work or cause harm we want to know because then we will stop giving them. It would not be the first time doctors found out that we were doing something stupid and would change practice. To carry on would be unethical and criminal. We owe no loyalty to the manufacturers or government. There have been hundreds of treatments and medications that have been stopped because they do not work or are harmful. However, many of the anti-vaccinators certainly have an agenda – they are ‘experts’ and well known because of their stance. Some of them even get to sell unproven hemeopathic medications on their website.
Taryn the anti-vaccine group is still very much a minority in the medical field. I would guess about 98-99% of doctors still support vaccination so it is hardly a huge swing in opinion – you just never hear from the 98% because they do not make their voice heard. Most doctors are vaguely aware of an anti-vaccine movement who they consider an oddity like those who believe that HIV does not cause AIDS. Also, you never find the doctors who REALLY know about vaccines – infectious disease experts, microbiologists or epidemiologists coming out against vaccines – and i think this is telling.
I have learnt a lot about the anti-vaccine websites and groups and a couple of things worry me about them:
1) They selectively quote studies – if there is one study which agrees with their point and 15 that don’t, they will not even mention the 15. The highly compramised Wakefield study is an example of this.
2) They claim vaccines don’t work and use graphs that look impressive but are actually smoke and mirrors – for example measles deaths (instead of incidence) and scarlet fever occurance which had actually decreased because of antibiotics. The hundreds (thousands?) or studies that show vaccines work as well as historical data are ignored. The claims about no placebo-controlled trials are clearly false as explored already.
3) They rely on or claim great conspirisies between doctors/pharmaceutical companies which somehow manage to hide the truth for 30 years (see my earlier post). From personal experience this would be absolutely impossible.
4) The anti-vaccine ‘experts’ are often germ denialists too.
.
Nobody in the medical field is saying there is no risk to vaccines. Just that the risk is most cases is extremely low. Also the risks that are known as generally short term risks such as fever. There is no hard evidence in large well done trials for any long term damage. This is not to say that this MAY not come out at some stage BUT it is wrong to blame all manner of ills on vaccines that probably are not true.
I support the descision of people not to vaccinate themself. I kind-of support their descision not to vaccinate their children – only kind-of because the children cannot make their own descision about this. And the descision not to vaccinate must be made rationally and with all the facts – not just that facts found on a few selective biased websites.
If someone said to me the following then i would understand their viewpoint, but sadly the reasons given are too often based on misinformation –
“We have decided not to vaccinate our children. This is because we believe the risks of giving the vaccines outweigh the risk of getting the diseases the child will be protected against. These include short term risks which are known usually rare side-effects as well as possible long-term risks which have not as yet been proven. We understand that not vaccinating our children leaves them open to contracting serious, possibly life-threatening infections like bacterial meningitis but are willing to take that chance. We also realise that if enough people stop vaccinating this may cause the re-emergence of certain diseases in our population.”
Nate,
What do you attribute the rise in asthma and diabetes in kids to? What do you say about the Amish non vaxed kids autism rate of 1/10,000 and the 30,000 kids in homefirst practice (chicago Dr. Eisenstein) that have NO autism? Is that just an anomaly, or do you doubt the motives of the amish and Dr. Eisenstein? Its funny that you say that you haven’t heard any experts against it as if a Neurosurgeon doesn’t qualify in conditions affecting the brain.
Regen, you continue to have very good questions.
Type 2 diabetes is obviously from our culture’s increased obesity. The research is showing that the rise in Type 1 diabetes is most likely multifactorial, but the strongest research indicates that it is also linked to obesity – if I understand the hypothesis correctly, increased insulin resistance from obesity essentially exacerbates otherwise subclinical diabetes. Here are some articles and reviews on the subject.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19506563
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18540867
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16283240
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18594271
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19506563
At least one study I know of did not support this hypothesis (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-5491.2007.02203.x/abstract), but the bulk of research seems to indicate that this is a significant contributor. There is research to support the hypothesis that improved hygeine also may contribute to autoimmune diseases, among other factors including vitamin D deficiency. The hygeine theory is one of the leading theories in the increase of asthma as well.
Immunization and Type 1 diabetes has been extensively studied and the research overwhelmingly shows no link.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10221937
http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMoa032665
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/108/6/e112
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1884889
I can’t answer all of your questions right now, but I will get to them when time allows!
Regen,
I can’t stress enough the importance of verifying the facts when you read claims by antivaccine activists like Age of Autism’s Dan Olmstead. The Amish do, in fact vaccinate, even if it is somewhat less so than the general population. They also have autism.
Per Dr. Strauss, pediatrician at the Clinic For Special Children in Lancaster County:
“The idea that the Amish do not vaccinate their children is untrue.”
“We see autistic behaviors along with seizure disorders or mental retardation or a genetic disorder, where the autism is part of a more complicated clinical spectrum.”
http://combatingautismfromwithin.blogspot.com/2008/01/guess-what-amish-vaccinate.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19302947
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17133167
From the full text of the above article:
“A total of 189 (84%) households with children reported that all of their children had received vaccinations; 28 (12%) reported that some of their children had received vaccinations; and 8 (4%) reported that none of their children had received vaccinations.
Among all respondents who knew their own vaccination status, 281/313 (90%) reported that they had received vaccinations as children”
Even if this were not the case, it would not be helpful to compare Amish children with the general population. They do not seek medical care with the frequency of the general population, and would be much less likely to be clinically diagnosed with autism, and they don’t participate in the same educational system to get an educational label of autism. And they have a vast number of differences than the rest of the world, with the greatest difference being their relatively isolated gene pool. Many diseases that are known to be genetic occur more frequently in the Amish population, such as maple syrup urine disease. Others, not as frequently. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12888983
If Mayer Eisenstein would produce evidence of his claims, I would be the first to read it, but he has not. I suspect that this is because there is none to be had. And given that he owns a “natural pharmaceutical company” that sells his brand of treatments for swine flu and autism, and is involved in some pretty horrifying wrongful death suits (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-autism-doctor-eisenstein-may22,0,3826791.story?page=1 and http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-autism-doctor-rosimay22,0,5086891.story), I’m really not comfortable taking his word for it.
His claim also makes it rather odd that the Age of Autism telephone survey referenced in Taryn’s original post found a 4% rate of unvaccinated autistic individuals.
Regarding neurosurgery: a neurosurgeon is an extremely well trained individual, but that does not make him an expert on immunology or autism, as autism is not a surgical disorder. A neurosurgeon is no more of an expert in autism than a gastrointestinal surgeon is an expert in managing diabetes by virtue of the fact that he can remove your pancreas. Even if he was an expert, he must produce evidence. Otherwise I have no reason to believe him over the overwhelming number of experts who state the opposite and support their claims with data.
What you just stated doesnt change the fact that the Amish autism rate is 1:10,000 and you are implying that you just don’t believe Dr. Eisenstein. So he has a lawsuit for a homebirth gone wrong. That doesn’t make him a liar. Just because he sells products doesn’t make him less trustworthy either. He has to supplement his income because he isnt bringing kids back every 2 months for their vaccines and they have less chronic illness.
Regen, the prevalence of autism among the Amish is not known. There have been no studies of this population. Any figure you may have heard is speculation.
Regarding Eisenstein, I highly doubt that he must resort to selling supplements to make ends meet, if his practice has as many patients as he claims. Just because he attracts patients who do not wish to vaccinate does not mean that he does not see the babies for routine well child checks, unless you have evidence to the contrary. When I see babies for well child checks, vaccination is the least important thing I do. The most important thing is the counseling I give regarding how to keep their baby healthy. I can only assume that Dr. Eisenstein does as well.
However, I suggest you make sure that you have read the entirety of both Chicago Tribune articles. Eisenstein has not simply had a “home birth gone wrong.” His practice has been sued an abnormally large amount of times for gross negligence and malpractice. He has been implicated in lying under oath. And some of the things he and his partners have said regarding the plaintiffs are too heinous to quote on Taryn’s blog. But you can read them yourself. Please do so and if you are still willing to accept him at his word, that is your prerogative. I must insist on evidence.
Previously, you have (rightly) expressed concern about conflicts of interest regarding vaccine studies. I find it rather surprising that you do not consider it significant that Dr. Eisenstein sells supplements that he claims prevents vaccine preventable diseases and treats autism. His entrepreneurship does not mean that he must be lying, however, it is only resonable to ask for evidence of his claim, as there are many factors and biases that may influence his statement.
Consider this: even if the foremost immunologist in the world said that it was okay to do something that heretofore had been considered contraindicated, I would require evidence. I would want to see the studies. How much moreso a single pediatrician with this man’s track record, when his claim contradicts the preponderance of evidence that vaccination is not associated with autsim?
AMA history of promoting harmful things:
http://www.naturalnews.com/021949.html#ixzz1AU4iDm6H
Despite its stated mission, “To promote the art and science of medicine and the betterment of public health,” the American Medical Association (AMA) has taken many missteps in protecting the health of the American people. One of the most striking examples is the AMA’s long-term relationship with the tobacco industry.
Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/021949.html#ixzz1AUMtH4tT
Hi there,
Thanks for this blog .. I am expecting my baby in 6 weeks time and DO NOT want to vaccinate. Could you possibly give me advice on the following:-
* How do I say NO and can the hospital / doctor enforce that I vaccinate?
* When my child has to go to school, can the school refuse admission based on my child not being vaccinated?
I basically just would like to know my rights as a parent.
Thanks again, Carey
Hi Carey – congrats on your pregnancy. Very exciting times!
It is not easy to say no – in my experience, the doctors and nurses are very disapproving. It’s difficult not to buckle under the pressure, especially if you’re a people pleaser like me!
No – there is no law that enforces vaccination. You have the right to refuse. However, I’d suggest that you make this very clear to your gynae / midwife now before the birth. It’s harder to be firm in the moment when you are tired and emotional. I asked my midwife to keep the nurses and paeds etc off my back about it and that was a huge help. With my others, when I refused only 1 vaccine in the hospital, I got a lot of flack and guilt from the nurses. At the end of the day it is your decision. You’re not likely to see the staff at the hospital again – so it’s helpful to remember that no matter how much disapproval they may show, they’re not going to keep showing up in your life with that level of disapproval. If your gynae is unlikely to back you up, then it’s probably advisable to take the precaution of typing up a statement signed by both you and your husband that says you do not want your child to receive any vaccines at all, so that they’re not “slipped in”. Legally, parents should sign an agreement with the hospital that they acknowledge and accept that the vaccines are being given to their child. Some hospitals, I think, let this one slide.
Schools are obligated to accept your child if your child lives in the zone of that school. Schools are not legally allowed to reject your child based on immunisation records, however, some schools will use these records in their decision making process, especially if you’re out of their zone. They’re not obliged to divulge why you’ve not been accepted, if you’re out of zone or they are a private school. If you want your child to go to a private school or school out of your immediate area, I would consider getting titre tests for the illnesses that the vaccines required. These are blood tests that determine if your blood has developed antibodies to the illnesses tested for. Your child could very well have the antibodies without even having had the illnesses and therefore you could use these results in lieu of a vaccination record. Alternatively, if there is a history in your family of allergies (esp to egg) or anything else that would suggest that vaccinations would compromise your child’s health you could ask your doctor to write a note to that effect explaining why your child is vaccine free.
I hope that helps!
Hi Natasha – apologies for the late reply, I’m busy catching up on the blog today. According to the constitution, no child may be denied education. So legally they cannot deny your child entry into school because s’he is not immunised. Because my kids are homeschooled, I’ve not run into this problem. So I don’t know the right channels to go through. If you have a friend / family member who is a lawyer, I’d ask them for advice on this. One letter from a law firm outlining your child’s constitutional rights should be enough to allow you to proceed with enrolling him/her. I’d like to hear feedback if you have for the sake of others too. I hope you have success!
Hi Natasha, I know people are going to get irate with this comment, but here goes.
Why not just sign your vaccine card yourself ?(If you need one just pop into any clinic and ask for one – just say you want a copy to plot growth or something.. they have hundreds of them. And the vaccine cards are not regulated. The department of Health uses the road to health chart but private clinics use cards that have the drug companies advertising splashed all over them – there is no standard.) ) There are millions of clinics and dr rooms throughout south africa, they cannot trace the signature. You do need to add the vaccine serial number, but just copy a friends. We live in south africa, we seriously do not have enough policemen to keep check on the criminals so dont stress about them running after you (but dont tell anyone u signed it of course) I think its easier to keep the peace and hand in that vaccine card so they think your kids are fully vaccinated. You are not putting other kids at risk because if they so firmly believe in vaccination then their kids are protected – right?
hello Taryn – hello all!
HOpe you are feeling better today TAryn.
I have an odd question to post, in the hope that someone might have some advice or knowledge.
I have 4 children. My first only ever had those polio drops (which they give newborns) after she was 6 months old. I did it because I felt an immense amount of pressure from “proffessional” and family in the medical fraternity. She got really really ill and her personality literally changed in front of my eyes – I spent most of that day on my knees with her, praying that I had not done her irreprable damage. Since then, I have never vacinated my kids this way. I started again about 5 years ago when my 3rd child was 5years old (only homeopathically) what I did notice was that the children responded differently. one would be snotty nosed for a few days, another more tired than usual, the other having no reaction at all. Also, despite this, they did catch chicken pox (again and again – I myself have had it 4 or 5 times – I loose count) and seem generally only ever to be suseptible to viruses, and never to bacteria.
anyway, I have a concern. My 3rd child started getting ill quite young in life – around 8 months old, when I went back to work. it was hospital visits and stress and strain for a year before I quit and became a home mom. My next child has had all the same sensitivities as her sister – they are so alike physiologically – yet she never got so ill, and her body coped better with the bugs. I have developed a suspision that someone had vaccinated her somehow while she was not in my care – perhaps a day care centre, or an overly concerned family member? It was a really massive issue in our extended family and I was treated like an Ogre and offered money and so forth… just to PLEEEZe vaccinate the child, and certain people even went as far as to visit my childs teachers and “discuss” me and my ways… and also my Peadiatrician, and “discuss” my lax attitude regarding vaccinations and the maner in which I feed my child…. stuff from the Adams family’s style! My daughter (this 3rd child, now 10 years old) was ill for a few days last week, and during that time, she cried nearly non stop – not only because she felt so awful, but because she feels very much like the “weak, black sheep” of the family. I tell you, it nearly broke my heart, and you can imagine the guilt I felt, because I had to work when she was really little (although, I also went back to work when my son had been that age) She questioned me, about why she was the one always getting to sick, and why she was the one that felt weak and could not run fast, and got dizzy when she played sport – she says she feels like she almost always has the after effects of concussion when she moves fast in any direction. (she has had concussion and remembers it well) I suppose it could be something specific, but she has seen more doctors from GP’s to to Peadiatricians to homeopaths and chiropractors and reflexologists, iridologists and opthalmologists. She has been to sports massage therapists, physiotherapists, cranial sacral therapists… you name it. No one has ever found anything. Although I have noticed what might be the tiniest bit of lack of muscle tone (which she did not exhibit when a baby) she eats well, has a good sleeping routine, does adequate sport and is very sociable and inteligent and looks healthy most of the time (she tends towards being pale however, being a red headed freckle face with the cutest button nose and piercing gold-green eyes – you can tell I’m quite biased ; )
My question (finally) is this, and sorry if I’ve posted this here before… I want to know if there is a way that one can test a child to find out if they have specific innoculation toxins in their systems? If there is, is there a way of narrowing it down to what level she was exposed to, perhaps indication of multiple vaccinations? ONe could conceivably measure the kinds of immunities either with blood tests, or homeopathically, but what I want to know is how exactly she would have come by such immunities and if it is the natural process, or if one can tell that it was artificially “stimulated” by specificaly “deactivated” viral proteins or dna that could still be lingering in her cells? in other words, would one be able to isolate the toxins enouth to forensically determine the vacine profile? Am I grasping at straws here – does any of this make sense in terms of what our medical technology can do? Perhaps I’ve been watching too much CSI or something, but its really nagging at me that I even have such terrible suspicions.
Regards, Rebekka.